California is the nations largest state with 4 major cities and host of medium size cities as well. Why not throw out Florida if you want to throw out California. In other words....Cali counts more than many other states combined for good reason.
JO'Co did not suggest throwing out California. He simply was making a point that Gore's popular vote majority did not represent the entire country. His point, clearly made, was that the combined vote total of the other 49 states favored Bush by roughly 1,000,000 votes. JO'Co's bottom line simply was, that's why we have the electoral college. Geesh. Do we have to translate everything into plain english for you?
Sid, I completely understand what Jo'Co is saying but I could also say what about taking the popular vote differential away from decidedly Republican rural states and then see how the national popular vote tally stacks up. It's a moot point...a nonfactor to me.
Still agonizing over the 2000 election? How counter-productive is that? Living life in the rear view mirror. Instead of looking for some kind of conspiracy you should ask yourself how you could have possibly lost at all coming off the halcyon Clinton years.
Exactly JO'Co's point. Thank you. I vaguely recall an outcry after the 2000 election that the electoral college no longer was relevant. Now who possibly could have thought that? The people of California? New York City? Chicago? Detroit? Or the people of Idaho, Kansas, New Mexico, etc., whose votes are relevant as long as the electoral college exists? Balance, my good man. Balance. That's the purpose of the electoral college. Professor Sid Voting 101
"Instead of looking for some kind of conspiracy you should ask yourself how you could have possibly lost at all coming off the halcyon Clinton years" You gotta be kidding me right? Does Kenneth Starr and Linda Tripp mean anything to you? Maybe the major cities have a voting bloc but I think the rural states have a voting bloc as well. In fact..I wonder if the electoral college isn't slanted toward the rural states in terms of numbers of electoral votes assigned.
Some of us don't think that we should be governed by the politicians selected by California. To show you how completely lost those people are (the children of Gilligan and Ginger) they elected a governor and 2 years later, they got rid of him in the middle of his term. Unfortunately, we don't have that luxury if the Californians decide that they made the wrong mistake in a national election. I've said this before but the Bush campaign was run to win the election. He spent a great deal of time in smaller critical states like W. Va. and Tenn. In the end the strategy paid off. Meanwhile the brilliant Gore lost in the Electoral College but won by a ton in California. Great achievement for a loser.
MCG, as so well put above the object is not to win the popular vote but to win the Electoral college. Bush did that in 2000. And in 2004 he won both the popular vote and the Electoral College. And yes in my mind Gore was an inept candidate. With the economy, the popularity of Clinton, how in the world did he manage to lose? I'm sorry to say MCG, but that statement says more about you than the good folks in NE Florida.
.....and that's coming from someone who has lived in Ohio and Miami and the Orlando area later in life. I don't think you know too much about what redneck ignorance and prejudice was as I do from when I was growing up in Jacksonville in the 60s. There was a lot of good people don't get me wrong but there was plenty of white trash ignorance as well.
Sorry MCG but I have a daughter, grandchildren, another daughters in-laws and my longest term friend who all live in Jacksonville. I don't accept your prejudicial comments at all, they are way off base. And as I said, says more about you than the people in Jacksonville.
... <t>i broke this down election by election some time back. The key to Clinton's election was splitting that 'rural Republican block' while keeping the key Democratic strongholds. I think it was in a vis-a-vis with MCG but it may have been Tod. Who knows?<br/> <br/> The long and short of it is that you play the game within the rules and confines of the match that are established prior to the start of the contest. Clinton's political machine fueled by a personal political/strategist hero of mine, James Carville, knew this well and played the game as it was designed. Win some, lose some.<br/> <br/> The Gore campaign was a travesty. Much akin to the public persona of Gore (and possibly to his personal one as well) his campaign was whiney, bullish, spoiled rotten and living off the fruits of other's labor. They whined about 'winning the popular vote'. Who gives a $h*t? Those aren't the rules. They knew that going in. Instead, they attempted to redefine the rules of the game as they came down the home stretch to suit their own personal needs. Nothing is more dangerous to the American political system. Even Dick Nixon stepped aside. He may have researched and probed the possibility of a re-run, but he didn't put the nation through it. Gore did. <br/> <br/> He knew the rules of the game and is still complaining all these years later. He lost.</t>
re: Kenneth Starr It should be remembered that it was the Democrats who created the Office of the Independent Prosecutor then gleefully used it to hunt down Republicans whom they didn't like. When the tables were turned, they screamed like stuck pigs... Kenneth Starr was and is an honest man and a talented attorney. As a former judge, he was just following the law. It should also be remembered that Mr. Clinton himself later peaded guilty to committing felonies in order to avoid prison, had his license to practice law revoked, and spent his final day in office selling pardons to convicted criminals, including his own brother... Here's a synopsis that I found: Kenneth W. Starr Republican attorney Ken Starr, who took over the Whitewater probe in August 1994, possesses an all-star Washington resume that includes stints as Solicitor General under George Bush, a U.S. Court of Appeals judge, and clerk to former Supreme Court Chief Justice Warren Burger. Though viewed by some as too partisan, Starr's inquiry was energized in May 1996 by the convictions of three Whitewater defendants -- former Arkansas Gov. Jim Guy Tucker and former Clinton business partners Jim and Susan McDougal. Since then, Attorney General Janet Reno has expanded the scope of Starr's probe to consider whether laws were broken with regard to Travelgate (the firing of seven longtime White House travel workers) and the FBI files flap (the White House's improper collection of background files). Starr's momentum slowed in July, when the jury in the second Whitewater trial acquitted Whitewater defendants Herby Branscum Jr. and Robert Hill on several counts of bank fraud, and deadlocked on the other counts. Though some had predicted an "October Surprise" of campaign season indictments, Starr kept a low profile throughout the fall. Since then, a vocal band of detractors, including Democratic strategist James Carville and Whitewater defendant Susan McDougal, have sought to portray the independent prosecutor as bent on a politically motivated effort to destroy the Clintons. -Please note. The aquittals in the second round of Whitewater trials really saved Mrs. Clinton. The Whitewater scandal was all about her. She was stealing from widows and orphans and mismanaging trusts, while her husband was molesting and even raping young interns going back to his days as Arkansas Attorney General... In the end, Ken Starr turned out to be right about everything...
Yes, and it seems the loser in the Mexico election has learned from the Gore campaign and now will attempt to over turn the result by rioting in the streets. Funny thing about Florida is that when the Democratic Machine tried dmonstrations in Florida they were met time after time by as big a demonstration by a group supporting Bush. The Dems didn't care much for that as they have come to believe demonstrations are their personal tool.
Bill, My father and sister still live in Jax and I get back a couple of times per year. I do know the Jacksonville of today and let me tell you it is night and day different than the Jax I knew while growing up in the 60s. It used to be known 40 years ago as the "biggest redneck town" in America and today only scattered remnants of that old Jacksonville still exist. Middleburg, Fla. ( just outside Jax) for instance is now a place with it's own upscale neighborhoods, etc. and a top flight highschool I understand, but in the late 60s/ early 70s it's dim denizens had only one ear/eye having lost one or both in knifefights and the locals used park souped up Roadrunners and Chargers under a huge oak tree in a field in the middle of town and contemplate over a few beers when the next fight would be. Sorry.....I never felt the urge to go on over and see where I could fit in with that crowd. Maybe you are more comfortable with that. I am also never comfortable that this group of Americans or their descendants are now key to the Republican voting base.
8) Well I live in the middle of the Democratic Party base here in California. This is where they have the most votes, do most of their planning and raise nearly all of the money that they spend in national campaigns. Since our state became the stronghold of the liberal/Left 30 years ago, we've watched our state go from #1 in education on all levels to #48. Thank God for Mississippi...eh? California used to have a fiscal surplus that was greater than the other 49 states combined. Our last lib/Dem governor and his pals spent it all in 18 months, then plunged the state into more debt than the other 49 states combined. Virtually all of this wealth went to public employees unions and other denizens of the lib/Dem base. The governor even proposed that school teachers should be exempt from paying state taxes... Anyone who wants to know what America would look like if the lib/Dems controlled everything should look to California...where they do control everything. The only way to protect yourself here, is to work for the state; as 1 in 7 Californians do, including me...
No MCG I've never felt that I had to fit in, but on the other hand I don't sit myself in judgement of other people and have never felt the word redneck should be an insult. Obviously I am different than you.
Well, Honk my horn. You found a city that is different from when you were growing up in the 60s. That's gotta be a candidate for Ripley's Believe It Or Not. In my world, everyhwere and everything is different from the 60s. Indianapolis had a reputation similar to how you describe Jacksonville. Its nickname back then was India-No-Place. In the summer of 1959, I went swimming in the community pool in Haddonfield, NJ, across the river from Philadelphia, with 4 friends, 3 black and 1 white. We were told by the pool manager that we could only swim in the area designated for blacks. Haddonfield is a world different today from 1960. Get my drift? Now that's an elitist statement if I've ever heard one.
I sat in Nashville a few years back at the Grand Ole Opry because at the time the new country music was pretty cool with Garth Brooks etc. and the person we were with wanted to visit the Opry. Well....I gotta tell you that all we heard was the most mundane...boring..traditional country music I have ever heard and it was excruciating. Then, to hear all of these yahoos in the audience yell out "Goo Goo Cluster" when prompted was almost more than I or my friends could bear. We still laugh about it unproariously today. I'll guarantee you there wasn't a Democrat among that group yelling. If that offends any of you then my apologies. That does say a lot about me Bill so as we both know we do have our differences. I used to laugh AT "The Beverly Hillbillies"....not WITH them.
The most conservative president of the 20th Century was Ronald Reagan. Here's a look at the map for his reelection night in 1984. It was the second time in 12 years that a Republican had carried 49 of the 50 states; something that no Democrat has ever done. That's a lot of rednecks...
The best politicians pick up the swing votes from the other party. Also the level of competition can effect that chart as well. As I stated before count me in on that blue side in 1988 because the Dems trotted forth one of their weakest presidential candidates ever for that one. Reagan in 1984 was a very strong candidate obviously and had across the board popularity. It happens but I'll bet his strongest base of support was pretty much unchanged from what the Republicans have today.....the rural religious right.