You and Bill and countless others have beat that drum for years without having the faintest idea of how that game played out. ND did not "go for the tie". How many people have made that statement without ever having seen the game......or having seen it like you did through biased glasses? ND fought hard at the end to score but refused to take undue risk against by far the nation's toughest defense with its second string QB and second string RB. We were working toward at least a FG. Thus, no long passes or throws into the teeth of the defense, which could have resulted in a turnover and an opportunity for MSU to score the winning FG or TD. The following week ND pasted an excellent USC team 51-0. There is no question that ND's strength of schedule in those years was exceptionally strong. I have no idea what kind of team Alabama had that year, so I can't comment on that part of your post. For all I know they were the Utah of 1966. :wink: My gosh! Give it a rest! I can't believe you would whine like that. I'm a huge Alabama fan, but I'll give no quarter to those who insist on sticking to the "ND went for a tie" script.
And whose system are we using to determine NCs now?? It's the circle of life Simba... So when you guys get tired of regional homer jobs and decide to settle this thing on the field, just let me know. Sid, There are many great urban legends of football and 'ND played for the tie' in 66 is one of them... Do you want to know how many times I have heard this tale??? "ND played for the tie, and then got their ass whipped by the Bear in the bowl game but that was back when they gave out titles before the bowl games so ND was #1 but Alabama whipped em." I've actually heard that tale re-told at least 4 or 5 times..from people who are not related (that I know of) and do not know each other (that I know of).. I'm not sure who spread that initially but it is still floating out there as I heard this last just earlier this football season. Imagine their heartbreak when I inform them that such a game never took place, and in fact, I wish it had because the Bear was '0 for the Irish.' When they challenge me, I tell them to look it up and call me as soon as they do. No one has ever called me back.....
Give me a break Corey that's the lamest analysis you've made here yet and responding to it is a waste of my time. Sid, I did watch the game and did not mean anything I said as an knock on Notre Dame. They did play much more conservative than Mich State at the end of the game. Obviously Ara P. (I can't spell his last name) knew what he was doing and ended up winning the NC. I do remember at the time the announcers knocking them a little bit but tha't no big thing either. My real comment was as to how things have changed though the years when teams from the East and Mid West could beat out southern teams with the same or better records and push that forward to now when there is no doubt that Florida and other Southern teams get plenty of attention when we win.
Sid, Corey, I watched the game, and the only reason I brought it up is because it is the same situation we have this year. So all of the talk about being undefeated and doing it on the field apparently didn't fly back then either and that was before BCS. Strength of schedule was the kicker!
It is NOT the same situation as this year. I understand how you meant that, kp, but let's be clear that in 1966, ND did do it on the field. They were undefeated and played by far one of toughest schedules in the country, perhaps THE toughest. I'd have to do some research to determine where our 1966 schedule might have ranked nationally. The comparison about ND's 1966 championship with today brings up some interesting points. First, the tie game. Most people, in their "Notre Dame went for the tie" mindset, forget what a dominant team MSU was in 1966. The year before at South Bend MSU had held a good ND to minus rushing yards in a 12-3 (I think) victory. In 1966, their defense was downright impregnable. My memory is not clear on who was favored going into the game, but I think MSU was the clear favorite. It truly was a battle of the 1966 "titans" of college football, similar to the classic games between Arkansas-Texas and Oklahoma-Nebraska in the same era (without looking it up, I can't recall the exact years of those two games). Back then, the strongest conferences were the Big 10, the SWC, the Big 8, and the Pac 10. I'm not sure where the SEC stood among the conferences, but they definitely were not among the strongest. The more I think of it, the SEC very well could have been the MWC of college football in those years. Alabama stood out as a perennial national contender, and Tennessee and LSU occasionally made some noise, but I don't recall the SEC as a conference having much of a national reputation for strength during those years. As to how Utah's 2008 situation compares to Alabama's in 1966, like I said earlier, I know nothing about the 1966 Alabama team, so I can't comment. I can only speculate that Alabama's schedule in 1966 was not among the toughest in the country.
for the record. I move that we all just agree to disagree and move onto tonight's game. We can come back and b*tch about this later on.
Sid, I think that the SEC was a lot better than the MWC during that period. I think as much as anything that what you said was the mindset of people outside the south. However in the 50's and 60's the SEC won several AP and UPI (coaches) polls. Auburn, LSU, I think Tennessee, and Alabama. I think it just took northerners a long time to wake up to how good football was in the south. But even with that mindset there were a number of national championships.
JoePa on line 1. I can't believe the crap I am reading in this thread now... But like I said before...
I gotta get a piece of this one. First of all, I know injuries are part of the game but ND's AA RB Nick Eddy got injured upposedly getting off the train and didn't play. Time cover boy Terry Hanratty went down to an injury in the first half and diabetic backup Coley O'Brien took over. By the second half of the 4 usual starters in the backfield only FB Larry Conjar was still playing and AA center George Goedeke was visibly limping. Still the Irish came back from a 10-0 deficit and narrowly missed what would have been a deciding FG late in the game. (I was sitting in that end zone) The game ended with ND with poor field position running the ball rather than trying to throw against that MSU. And when the game was over what was the story? Not what a heroic effort by a badly beat up Irish team, it was that somehow Ara didn't risk all that they accomplished by throwing hail Marys at the end. I've always wondered why some voters were more impressed with MSU than the Irish after this game in E. Lansing. Oh and while everyone is just raving over the USC defense this year, ND's defense that year averaged giving up 3.8 pts. per game. (7 came after the offense fumbled on the 2 yd line.) USC's stats pale by comparison. I don't recall who Alabama was playing that Saturday when no. 1 ND was playing at no. 2 MSU. But it must have been a pretty impressive victory for the Tide to have jumped over those 2 great teams.
Bill, I stand corrected in my comments about relative strength of the SEC in the 60s. I was going from memory, and while I paid no attention to the SEC back then, the facts below prove that I was wrong about the SEC's place among the conferences of that era. My apologies. I found a site which lists the national champs according to each recognized rating service. During the 30-year period 1951 through 1980, there were at any given time 2-3 major rating services (AP, UPI 1951-57, Football Writers, and Natl. FB Foundation 1959-80). I counted the number of outright/consensus champs and the number of shared championships (shared = receiving the vote of at least one of the services). Recognizing that there were different conferences back then, I list below only the conferences as they exist today: SEC - 5 outright, 6 shared (TN, AUB, LSU, AL) B12 - 6 outright, 3 shared (OK, TX only) B10 - 4 outright, 3 shared (MN, OSU, MSU) P10 - 3 outright, 2 shared (USC only) Other - 4 outright, 2 shared (ND, SYR, MD, Pitt)
Sid, Off the top of my head I see one that was missed. UCLA was the United Press NC in 1954. Ohio State was the AP see link below: http://www.cfbdatawarehouse.com/data/national_championships/yearly_results.php?year=1954
Good catch, Corey. when I went back I found that there actually were 3 shared that I erroneously counted as outright. Also, I miscounted the number of B12 outright championships. In the interest of accuracy, here is a restated count: SEC - 4 outright, 7 shared B12 - 5 outright, 4 shared B10 - 2 outright, 5 shared P10 - 3 outright, 3 shared (USC, UCLA) ACC - 2 shared (MD, Ga Tech) BigE - 2 outright (Syr, Pitt) ND - 1 outright (1977), 3 shared (1964, 66, 73) I should note that if you eliminate the NFF and FB Writers and use only AP and UPI, which is basically how history records it, the list changes as follows: SEC - 6 outright, 4 shared B12 - 5 outright, 3 shared B10 - 3 outright, 3 shared P10 - 3 outright, 3 shared ACC - 1 shared BigE - 2 outright ND - 2 outright, 2 shared* * UPI ignored bowl games. In 1973, UPI named AL natl. champ at the end of the regular season. ND beat AL in the bowl game, but the record shows that they shared the championship (AP = ND, UPI = AL). How ironic, given the preceding conversation. I guess the AL folks who feel they have a legitimate gripe about 1966 got a form of revenge in 1973 by keeping ND from winning the NC outright despite being beaten by ND in the final game of the season. :lol:
Sid, No worries. We Bruins have, in football, 1 title and a long history of ruining USC's year. The fleeting moments are easy to commit to memory. I wouldn't expect anyone else to care
Nice research Sid. I wish I could say the Gators were in some way part of those numbers but they weren't. The good news is that we are part of the numbers since 1990.
It's just interesting that the quality of the opponent rises to the top of the discussion when your own team is involved. That is why I brought it up. I knew that how tough MSU was would be brought up. Also while ND was undefeated that year they did not win them all. Alabama did. Corey, I tried. I will be yelling for Florida tonight. Us discriminators and firehose users have got to stick together.
Kp, if the shoe had been on the other foot, I'd be griping too. I have no problem with your feelings about it. My original point was only that ND did not "go for the tie" in the MSU game. I think my ramblings and Gipper's first hand account made that point very clear. One thing I found when I looked up all the national championships for the 30 years 1951-80 was how dominant Alabama was year in and year out during that era. It tells me how unaware I was about any other area of the country outside the midwest.
Sid, Corey, I actually enjoy the discussions. Some folks on here seem to get a little "hot" but I get a kick out of the exercise most of the time. The way things have happen in the NCAA football world over the years in like most things..."what comes around, goes around". Alabama has benefited from this screwed up system and it has suffered from it. One of the things about the situation in 1966 was if Alabama had won it would have been 3 NC's (AP Poll) in a row. Would have been a first. Conspiracy theories abound.
As I recall the Bear was quoted as saying that he didn't want it put on his tombstone that he never beat Notre Dame. Well I believe he had 4 chances and never beat the Irish. I know when he died some ND alums offered to buy his tombstone.