Well said Krebsie... I was familiar with the Marysville plant and and I know that Toyota also has a plant in Indiana and WVa,, in addition to production facilities in Alabama, Kentucky and Texas. Fully 70% of all the cars Toyota sells in the US are made here..... MCG, the answer for the Big 3 is to build better cars....blaming the consumer for their taste in autos is dead-a$$ backwards....in a free market society, the customer is always right and will take his money where he believes it will serve him best....... Terry
I am not one that chastises others for buying foreign cars. However, I personally prefer to buy from American owned companies. My driveway now includes: 2004 GMC Envoy (licesne plate LA D VOL) 2004 Chevrolet 1500 standard cab short bed 5.3 Liter gas (license plate IM A VOL) 2005 Chevrolet 2500 club cab long bed 4x4 diesel (license plate VOL FAN)
Previous car: '89 Ford Taurus stationwagon (drove '94 to '97) - drove it to 150,000 miles and the mechanics were impressed with the long life I got out of it. Paint on the hood was all faded and hazy. Current car: '94 Toyota Camry stationwagon (drove '97 to now)- has 230,000 miles and counting. Mechanics don't bat an eye when doing routine maintenance and sending me back out on long trips. Even washes and waxes up to look fairly new if I put the effort into it. Would love to support the American companies and move up from my 10+ year old car, but who makes a decent size stationwagon? My options for a similar car are Volvo (too much $$) and Subaru. All US, and most others for that matter, assume we all want SUV's. I like the car size and mileage, and the stationwagon space for stuff and dogs. Ford has the Freestyle now, a hodge-podge of auto genres, that looks just like the Explorer, Escape, and Expedition (and isn't getting great reliability reviews). Seems Ford thinks we all want cars that look about alike, but slightly different sizes. At least Chrysler and now Chevy are designing things outside the box a little. As soon as an American company makes something I want with a decent reliability, I'll be happy to buy it!! Meanwhile, I keep an eye on the Subaru Outbacks in case my Camry ever breathes it lasts breath. Oops, didn't give credit to Dodge for the Magnum. Darn cool looking car and I loved it at first. But when looking at it closer, that shape leads to awful visibility, the design of the rear lift-gate opening is much smaller than the cargo space (so you can haul something big, but you just can't actually get it in the car), and it drinks the gas. Sorry, off the list.
MCG: I take no pleasure in te trials of the Big Three auto companies. I'm just voicing what I feel are some of the root causes. Another problem they have is the crush of their pension plan obligations. Ohio IS a northern industrial region. The Marysville plant gets approached regularly by the UAW and rebuffs them each time. They obviously don't perceive any significant benefits Do the Japanese not incur development and engineering costs? My father worked for 29 years for NCR. In the early 70's the UAW approached the workers there about representing them. Prior to that they were represented by a small , local independent union which had a wonderful relationship with NCR management. NCR was the ultimate family company back then, providing all kinds of recreational facilities and activities for their employees. The UAW's approach was that they would guarantee the workers the same high wages that GM workers made ( NCR people made a few dollars less per hour ). Forget that the UAW had NO experience with the cash register business. The NCR employees took the bait and voted the UAW in as their labor rep. The union immediately started strongarming NCR and organized a walkout. The company agreed to some wage concessions but not nearly what the union demanded. Long story but the end was NCR closing all of their Dayton manufacturing operations withing two years and moving them to Delaware, Georgia, New York state and Canada. 28,000 people were jobless. Only then did they realize that they loved their jobs and had no real beef to begin with. They had bought into the UAW line of BS and paid the ultimate price. My father then got a job at GM where he was horrified at the deportment of the workers in general; ie. drunkeness, drugs, gambling on the job and excessive absenteeism. But the union had GM under their thumb. So its my theory that GM expected less of its employees and teh constant "dumbing down" of the workforce coupled with short-sighted management has led to this. The foreign competitors simply refused to allow themselves to repeat these mistakes.
Hmmmmmm.....you could be talking about the stagecoach companies. Tough sh!t that technology and innovation brought new entrants with better business models in the form of the railroads.....or perhaps the railroads themselves....tough sh!t that technology and innovation brought new entrants with better business models in the form of the airlines...or perhaps the buggy whip companies. Tough sh!t that technology and innovation brought new entrants with a better business model in the form of the automobile companies.....or the slide rule companies, etc., etc, etc. The list goes on ad infinitum.....it is the essence of our system. It is inevitable that superior business models prevail and inferior, outmoded business model with inferior management disappear. Our system cannot progress and our way of life improve generation after generation by rewarding inefficiency and discouraging innovation, new technologies and improved business models. I can think of no greater threat to our way of life than to incent systems and managements that have proven themselves unable to compete......the Japanese auto companies have been here for a generation. A generation is more than enough time to right the course of an errant ship. Hell, the Japanese were making autos in the US before Bill Gates wrote his first line of code..... I believe with every fiber of my being that propping up Detroit is a far greater threat to our national well-being than leaving them to their own devices and forcing them to become competitive.....or not. Terry
Oui, oui....certainment! And many other once great but now extinct civilizations/species.....e.g., dinosaurs. Terry
Stagecoach companies usurped by foreign competition and uncaring Americans? Don't think so. Good job Tom by the way.
MCG: You're upset by this and I can appreciate that. But your arguments are emotional and misdirected. It's all about sound management, realistic expectations, innovation and listening to your customers. Or, in this case, a lack thereof.
MCG, it's all about refining your product offerings and business model to reflect the competitive realities that exist in the market. If you don't, new entrants - be they foreign or domestic - will take your customers, your investors, your workforce and eat your lunch. What the American public don't care about is the product that Detroit has been rolling off the production lines.....-v- the offerings of competitors. I would argue that the true "uncaring" Americans are the short-sighted labor leaders...the consumer sets the price they are willing to pay for an automobile. From that price the provider must pay for labor, equipment, research and development, promotion and provide a competitive return to their investors from whom they receive capital for expansion and new plant and equipment. The business model put fort by the Detroit automakers under the gun of the myopic labor leaders enables labor to extort a disproportionate amount of the pie there leaving the shortfall to be made up from: skimping on R&D and investment in new and improved plant and equipment, promotion -v- the competitors or shafting the very investors you need to fund your new plant and equpment - I would argue that Detroit has been guilty of all of the above. As a result of labors short-sighted demands for a disproportionate, uneconomically viable share and managements unwillingness to take a meaningful stand, they have crippled their companies ability to compete and have been largely responsible for the demise of the very worker they believe they are supporting..... Terry
Yes, labor issues have helped significantly to put Detroit car companies in the untenable position they are now in but again these problems were fomented many years ago and are not a result of present generation pillaging of the bottom line. It's not an easy fix either that can be swallowed easliy by anyone, even in management. When you have worked dilligently and loyally for a company your whole life, planning for retirement and accepting your position due to the packaged promised at the end of your career and then they take it away in big chunks that's not easy to overcome. When you ask a thirty-something Delphi worker who has a family and house and all those things that go with it to all of a sudden take a 50% pay cut that's a very difficult request. I challenge anyone here to adapt to such a life-changing event like that. This thirty-something Delphi worker did not sow the problems in an earlier life. He is just paying the price for his labor father's past sins. Again, this process is a dumbing down of our lifestyle. It's a ruralization at best and a third world comparison at worst. If this is what we have to accept as global competition then it won't be pretty in many industrial communties in America, unless you live in a field somewhere that only has one Wal-mart and a gas station. But hey, at least you can take solace in the fact that you're surrounded by God-fearin Republicans! :lol:
MCG wrote: Not trying to start an argument, but I have a slightly different perspective here. What would be better for that "30 something" employee: 50% wage cut or a 90% wage cut going on the unemployment soup line? If my industry goes under, I will be looking at the same situation. Three years ago, we voluntarialy made concessions to keep fellow employees working. Now we are back up to receiving full maximum profit sharing. You sometimes have to give a little (or a lot in this case) rather than always expecting to take, take, take. You must plan for the bad times so that it does not hurt so much when the good times turn sour.
AHEM.....BT..... I can assure you that the railroads are still operating....and at a profit I might add. :wink: By the way there was a big derailment about 3 miles east of here yesterday. I'm sorry to say that you,Krebsie and the Jiffster will have to wait for your "Girls Gone Wild" tapes and dvds. They,alas...fell victim to the wreck ,when the trailer van they were eastbound in split open and dumped them....to the delight of the burgeoning Hispanic community of Goshen In. 8) I do realize you were referring to passanger trains by the way. Terry I think you are "scape goating" the UAW.....they certainly share some of the blaim....but all of it....I don't think so.
I do blame unions. In the distant past, the companies were the bad guys and unions had a place in the scheme of things. Today, the unions are the bad guys, at least, in my opinion. In 1979, I had just acquired a job with Firestone Tire and Rubber plant in Lavergne, TN. To that point, this was a far better job than anything I had dreamed of. I was 21 years old, wild as a $hit house rat, and making excellent wages. In 1980, this non-union facility was being approached by the URW. The union was voted out until a single event occurred. A "worker" that had a poor attendance record was fired after missing 4 days without reporting in. Other "workers" that shared his lack of motivation for work, helped rally people behind his cause and voted in the union. If I remember correctly, we bacame URW Local 1055. Within 3 weeks, we were out on strike. We were out for almost 6 months making $100/week strike benefits. We came back to work with less money and the lazy A$$ was still fired. Less than a month after returning to work, 30% of the workforce was layed off based upon years of seniority, not quality of work. THAT is what is wrong with union labor. After the workers have more time in than their co-workers, they think that they can do nothing and still get paid. It would not hurt my feelings to see unions go away... period.
Whobe....no arguments from me on the UAW being the entirety of the problem.....I don't believe that they are. That said, in my simple minded way of looking at things, one is either part of the solution or part of the problem. I don't think I would be overstating the case in saying that the UAW has not been part of the solution! The labor laws of our land give the UAW free rein to organize in the production facilities of the foreign competitors if the workforce in amenable.....it is significant to me that they have been notably unsuccessful in their efforts to date....the answer is simple. Consistent with what Tennessee Tom has suggested from personal experience, which labor force has been better served?????? Also, re: Railroads....it's fair to say to their/YOUR credit - they have adjusted and come back from the brink to compete, but also fair to say that they move far lower percentage of the nations passenger and freight traffic than they did 100 years ago, no? Terry
Whobe, You and I need to improve our emergency communication measures so that you can inform me in time for me to rush from Ft. Wayne to the scene of the accident to pick up any "loose debris". :wink: :wink:
BT....apples to oranges there.....we didn't have interstates and triple-rig semis back in those days. That's history and I grant you that point( RR's do pay property and fuel taxes) Now on the competitive edge.....City to city(heart) I hear you can do it fster on Amtrak then "wingin it", must be why so many want the east and west corridors sold. Now no "pissin match" commin from this old "Tancredo, Buchanan, Dobbs guy here. It's all about ying&yang (those are the guys that will be taking TT's job next year at 1/3 his wages
Boy that got your attention Tom I wasn't pickin on you but I can swap union horror stories both pro and con. Just havin some fun! That said if anyone opens a topic on the current Senate bill on immigration and the nifty little things hidden inside it I'm right there. Tom you're ok in my book.
Check out these biting comments from today's Lou Dobbs column in CNN online: "But the Red Storm(China) cannot be blamed for its continued manipulation of its currency, for its record $202 billion trade surplus with the United States or for buying up American businesses and hard assets around the globe while restricting access to its market and economy. The fault lies entirely with the U.S. government, our lack of strategy and our failed policies. This administration and U.S. multinational corporations have lost sight of the national interest. This administration and the Republican-led Congress have permitted the dismantling of America's manufacturing base and created a dependency on China for our clothing, computers, consumer electronics and a host of other products that is greater than our dependency on foreign oil. Make no mistake: Our leaders are the fools, and China's leaders are not to be blamed for taking advantage of this administration's commitment to faith-based economic theories and so-called free trade that permits the Chinese access to the world's richest consumer market while China denies our businesses access to its emerging market." My problem as always with the hellbent Bush supporters here on Skybox is that somehow Dobbs is way off base, he makes no sense and Detroit deserves it's misery with no external root causes. The Bush administration and the Republican party is....as always and forever with you guys the best thing to ever happen to America.