I think polls are tricky things. A poll on gun violence in NoCal will most certainly yield different results than a poll on the same exact subject taken in NoAlabama. The problem with statistics is that they can be twisted any way you want, quite literally. They don't take into account every detail of any one comparison, ergo they do nothing more than create strawmen and misleading data.. That goes for both sides of the issue. One country is almost infinitely larger than the other. One country will misrepresent stats in one direction, while another country will do the exact opposite. None of it considers cultural differences, legal differences, economic differences. If the gun is the problem, then place a loaded gun on a pedestal in the middle of a room packed with people. Sooner or later, it's going to kill someone or at least hurt them.. right? Every single gun that even so much as fires itself (let alone hit anyone) in such a setting should be banned forever. If no guns fire themselves, then you have to stop and consider, just possibly that it's not the gun that is really the issue. If the existence and presence of firearms equates into gun violence, then I sincerely want to know why more people don't get killed and/or injured at this place? http://hoovertacticalfirearms.com/ This is one of my favorite stops when I'm in the area. It's quite literally a retail equivalent to an amusement park This place is literally so huge that the number one complaint is that they do not have enough employees. I can also attest to the fact that a good number of folks wandering this place are the very dipshit bubbas who will one day star in a "Hey, watch this!" youtube video. The rest are basically real gun enthusiasts and scared suburbanites of some urban boogeyman that's going to come get them from Birmingham. But there are guns.. oh lord are there guns. Guns and ammo everywhere!! In my opinion, the gun gets more dangerous the further away from responsibility it gets. Now, how do we make such determinations? Prior criminal history.. check.. mental instability..check.. Whatever detrimental factor I'm missing..check I don't think that's the issue. I don't think even the most die-hard gun enthusiast/owner will object to those items that even the most hardened anti-gun person would mention.. The issue is the 'in between' and you just can't legislate that. You can't. It's never been done successfully. What has been done successfully is to use legislation to compromise your Constitutional Rights, and then use that as legal precedent to further compromise other rights. That, frankly, is my issue. I'm getting old, but I'm not that old. Well, maybe. Anyway, the point is that just in my lifetime I've seen so much legislation passed with the best intention only to see it bastardized time and time again. We find ourselves decades later wondering how the hell we got here with fewer freedoms, yet the problems are worse than ever? That's my issue.
Excellent stuff Corey, thanks for writing it. (I agree with it all FWIW). Terry, I'd be interested in seeing a comparison of RIFLE/shotgun deaths by percentage between the countries listed. As Corey noted, stats can be skewed simply by comparing apples to oranges. Of course there are very few handgun deaths in those other countries... but almost all of them have VERY strict controls of handguns if not outright bans. Also... their populations are MUCH smaller... so that right there would make the raw numbers look different. However... they do have better access to "sporting" guns... so I'd be curious to see what that looks like in a comparison. Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to sweep the number of deaths here under the rug, just pointing out that the numbers can be used to suit an agenda. Also note... handguns are not being discussed by the great legislators who are so anxious to protect us. No... instead they will stop all the killing by banning a subset of sporting rifles that are used to commit a TINY percentage of homicides... (And you were correct, it looks like that ban is dying on the vine. I'd like to think it was because they realized it was ridiculous, but know it was instead because they fear it would jepordize passage of the whole bill)
Scott, in truth I was just looking for some images to respond to the propaganda Tom was putting forth and those two seemed an appropriate, and hopefully good-natured response. :wink: We can parse the data in any number of ways but we still are a clear and distant statistical outlier in handgun deaths per capita, any gun deaths per capita and murder rate per capita by several multiples.....there are no close seconds. Try as one might, there is no way one can parse the data to make us look like anything but bad amongst civilized societies. If that were not the case, I would not be as supportive of more effective legislation as I am....but it is and the costs, both economic and social, to our nation are massive and unnecessary
T, You make an interesting point and it's one I often wonder about. Why does 'more effective legislation' never equate into more effective enforcement of legislation? By that, I don't mean 'let's put more cops on the street' because honestly that just rarely ever works for much of anything substantive. To me, personally, I just don't see the need for more laws when we can't/don't effectively enforce the laws that are in place. As I alluded to, I think if we honestly sat down and discussed it rationally, there could be a compromise and probably one that doesn't center on new law. One thing that always amazes me, when watching the 2 sides debate particularly this issue, is that there is so little difference between the masses. What happens, like with so many things, is that a fire starter will come along and stir up the mobs. I think it's safe to say that passionate mob mentality has never proven to be a great decision maker, regardless of culture.
No question about it Corey...none. It is however a very emotional issue for many and rational thought and emotions are not good bedfellows. Everybody is worried about protecting some shred of "this or that" and we have gotten so caught up in defending "this and that" that we lose sight of protecting that which is the very reason for our entire array of "this and thats".....each other individually and us as a people and culture collectively......and in the process, we are allowing the future of "us" to be slaughtered - both literally and figuratively - on the streets in numbers that can't possibly be rationalized away. Somehow the notion of cloaking oneself in a document written to protect the "general welfare of the people" seems absurd when we are the developed world leader in the slaughter of our own and arguing about whether or not we should take steps to improve our standing? wtf?
Right, I understand that, but what does emotion have to do with the law? In earnest, emotion has led to the passage of many laws but it has zero to do with the enforcement or application of the law. I know people don't seem to care much for that document, but it is that document (right or wrong) that makes us different. That's what makes us Americans. Everyone else has their own document or their own generalissimo.. but not like us.. ergo, that's why some folks protect it so ferociously. That document protects us all and gives us the freedom to laugh at the document, or even speak freely about changing it. That's why the document, to me, is more important than the emotion on either side.
And what Ralph just posted is precisely what I'm talking about... I could write for days about how we got here with both the police dept AND child services organizations..They'll justify what they did.. because emotional reactions lead to emotional legislation, which lead to heartless and unemotional twisting of the definitions of said legislation so they can come busting in your door to make you answer for things that you've not done wrong.. Say what you want about criminals, but at least I know where I stand with those guys.
I like this Corey guy... he is on to something. Terry, The problem a lot of folks have (myself included) is that laws of any kind only affect those who follow them. And we're NOT the ones doing all this killing. No amount of background checks, or magazine limits applied to me will stop street gangs, organized crime, general thugs, or suicidal loonies from getting guns and using them. Mexico (and other avenues)makes it just too easy. The legislators fail to come close to addressing the problems causing all the shootings. They are too myopic and focused on the flashy items... As Corey mentioned... they are slowly but surely eroding the rights (not talking about just arms) given to us by the C because they know what's best for us. The best thing about the US has always been that I have the right to decide for myself... as long as I don't infringe on your rights. Not for much longer.
NRA Posts Best Fundraising Month In More Than 10 Years… The NRA should send a thank you letter to the DNC. Via Politico: The National Rifle Association’s fundraising pace continues to quicken amid fears of new restrictions on firearms, with the gun lobby’s political action committee posting its best single month of fundraising in over a decade. The group raised nearly $1.6 million in February, according to the latest FEC filings posted Tuesday night. February’s numbers follow on the heels of a $1.1 million haul in January. The NRA hasn’t posted such strong fundraising numbers since the height of the 2000 presidential campaign, when the committee raised $1.7 million in October. Its fundraising pace has increased considerably since the December shooting in Newtown, Conn., that killed 26 people. During the 2011-12 cycle, the committee raised an average of $600,000 per month — for a two-year total of $14.3 million. The committee’s fundraising pace in January and February alone has doubled from the previous cycle. Its PAC ends the month with a $4 million war chest.
this is what I'm talking about, granted it too is an extreme, but it's a factual case. This gal had a loaded revolver, meth and other contraband hidden inside her vagina. The gun had 3 unspent rounds and one spent round in the chamber. I've not read a report about where that thing went off. But more to the point, some people are just committed to being bad. http://www.nydailynews.com/news/crime/cops-bust-woman-find-gun-meth-article-1.1282940 I actually found/heard of this story because it is repeatedly being joked about by gun control advocates. At first, I didn't believe it. After researching and finding out that this odd story is 100% true, the thought occurred to me that stories such as this should be the last thing gun control advocates would talk about. There's no level of legislation, or human decency, that would stop this broad from breaking the law.
That majority of people who fear guns are so fair minded that they too must be contributing to the NRA for fund raising to be up to these levels.
Cuomo’s NY SAFE Act Nabs Its First Gun Owner: Iraq War Vet Arrested For Selling 10-Round Magazine, AR-15… And the real criminals with guns continue to roam the streets. Via Guns.com: A Western New York man now faces seven years in prison for violating Gov. Andrew Cuomo’s new gun control-law, the NY Secure Ammunition and Firearms Enforcement Act (or SAFE Act). Benjamin M. Wassell, an Iraq War veteran, was charged with twice selling newly banned military-style ‘assault’ weapons and standard-capacity magazines to an undercover police officer as part of a sting operation conducted by State Police and the New York Attorney General’s Office, the Buffalo News reported. Altogether, the 32-year-old Silver Creek resident was slapped with three felony charges and one misdemeanor, which as noted could end up putting Wassell, who has no prior convictions, behind bars for as many as seven years. “By selling these illegal firearms, Mr. Wassell’s actions had potentially dangerous consequences for New Yorkers,” said state Attorney General Eric Schneiderman. “We have seen far too much gun violence in our state in recent months, and the sale of illegal semiautomatic weapons will not go unpunished.” On Jan. 24 Wassell sold a Del-Ton AR-15 to an undercover agent along with six standard-capacity magazines and 299 rounds of ammunition for $1,900. Due do the fact that the rifle has one or more military cosmetic characteristics, i.e. a detachable magazine, a pistol grip and a telescoping stock, it is considered an ‘assault’ weapon under the NY SAFE Act and cannot be sold to anyone but a licensed dealer or an out-of-state citizen. The first sale Wassell made to the undercover officer was made nine days after the Governor rammed through the law in the dead of night after waving the mandatory three-day legislative review period.
No doubt the gun lobby's massive promotions have had an impact......current legislation calls for universal background checks and caps on mag capacity. My guess is an overwhelming majority of citizens are supportive......doing nothing in the face of our position among the world's developed countries is not a victory for anyone
Your guess is probably accurate if you modify it a bit: An overwhelming majority of citizens are supportive - of effective changes. NOT just change for the sake of saying we're doing something. I still say max out enforcement. Make it a stiff FEDERAL offense to commit ANY crime with a gun. Ship them to Fed prison with no parole. It will take a while, but it will remove the perps from the equation over time.
The key to this is that the US is the land of the free. Freedom brings some unwanted issues. However, we are built upon punishing bad behavior, not punishing potential bad behavior. Can you imagine the outrage if police were to start writing tickets for cars that look fast? "But officer... I am parked." "Yes, but that car is capable of 170 mph so I am certain you speed. Why else would you have it?" Can you imagine the outrage if the police came to the local fitness center and started arresting people with bulging biceps because they have the potential for overpowering a mate in a domestic violence situation? Penalties are for those that do wrong. Period!
The legislation most likely to come to a vote has as two of its key elements 1) universal background checks, 2) cap mag capacity Survey results have consistently shown strong support for these initiatives. I'm very comfortable with my statement suggesting solid support for those elements, even noting strong support among NRA households for universal background checks. Even you and Tom have stated you would be in support of universal background checks. Seems like a no-brainer to me.....the wisdom and/or merits of relying on the "honor system" for convicted felons and the mentally-ill escapes me completely regarding an issue so important to the general welfare of the people.... http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-250_162-57568149/poll-9-in-10-americans-support-background-checks/