Corey, I don't want to add fuel to the fire here but I have a few questions: Is it right to shut out everyone associated with the board even if that person was not involved with the altercation? Is it right for that uninvolved person to feel disappointment (let down by Jim)? Those two questions cry for a yes or no response. I started communicating with Jim via e-mail. After I poured my heart out to him, I never received a response. I would like to know what I did for him to cut me off. You say that you reviewed the comments made before and after. I’ll challenge you to find even one comment of any kind from me, much less a derogatory comment, in that flurry where Jim took exception. I thought we were friends. Should I think otherwise?
Corey, I just couldn't let that comment stand without commenting on it myself. Several of us have been victims of this "group think" mentality. Jeff Ramsey was run off by the Gator “group think” and to a lesser extent the ND “group think”. Another Tennessee fan was run off by the ND “group think” headed up by Jack O’Brien (I think was his name), a big buddy of yours. Wasn’t that Tennessee person highly offended by an attack of his wife by this a$$ O’Brien? Do you remember who that was? Wasn’t it you that communicated behind the scenes with that Tennessee fan and did that Tennessee fan not continue that communication with you to find common ground? Jim didn’t give this a chance for me to help like you did. That is what I blame Jim for and why I feel he let ME down.
I'd like for Corey to give me the link or copy the text where I or anybody called Jim a Liar. Did I dispute his claim that USC was playing nothing but walkons, yes. If that is calling him a liar then Corey called me a liar when I said that Stanford probably didn't have more than a couple of players that USC even recruited.
oh I was <r>and I still stand by my point.<br/> <br/> It was YOUR (meaning YOU Terry) statement that USC played 'all walkons'<br/> <br/> JOCO's post was as follows:<br/> <QUOTE><s> </e></QUOTE> JOCO's statement was true. I have challenged any of you to go back and watch that game.. You scoffed. Much the same way (when I made my return post and explained my reasons for leaving) you had in other subjects, you are doing the same thing here.<br/> <br/> You ask for citation and support for anything and everything we post that you do not agree with..and by the time we do provide that, you have moved on with the mocking and the thread has lost all meaning.<br/> <br/> Why provide citation if its just going to be ignored or scoffed at?<br/> <br/> After JOCO made his post, Sid made the reply (and I think its fair to mention his position is one he later adjusted admitting he was blinded by his hatred for USC-shall I cite that too?)<br/> <QUOTE><s> </e></QUOTE> It was then you Terry who took the leap into the absurd and said:<br/> <QUOTE><s> </e></QUOTE> Now... eliminate Sid's post in the middle and compare/contrast yours to JOCO's. How the hell did you get from A to C?<br/> <br/> Looking further into other subjects, I tried to stick it out but when I created a football related topic (because the board was filled with crap at the time) I was greeted with:<br/> <QUOTE><s> </e></QUOTE> And when I jumped your ass for having a Midol moment to a football related subject that was not defamatory or flaming anyone... Bill came at me with this:<br/> <QUOTE><s> </e></QUOTE> You wanted me back, well I am back without JOCO to plead with me to check my responses. So I will simply and gladly meet the task of one-sided ignorance and regional bias each and every time. I am sure you will find a way to 'poo poo' away this as well. You wanted citation, I gave it to you. Whether you realized it or not, you were being more than a tad cranky at that time and have continued to do so it would appear with my return or the mention of JOCO. I don't know if you have something going on with you that has put your mood in a foul place, but I simply LOLed reading the responses that it must somehow have something to do with the personal lives of either JOCO or myself. And again, you have chose to attack and try to put me on the defensive rather than take an introspective look at your own words. Your pride is defeating you here. Not me.</r>
It's really hard to believe that fifteen year friendships are thrown away over the comments made above. Whatever. This is going nowhere. I vote we all move on.
And for you Tom <r>first of all, you are loading the deck against me asking questions that require more than a yes or no answer.. but then limiting my responses to a Yes or No format.. We don't live in a Yes or No world but you I guess are trying to play the same game of 'one up'...So keeping that in mind:<br/> <QUOTE><s> </e></QUOTE> -Answer: Yes. <br/> -Answer with clarification... yes it is because those not involved in the altercation..some of whom have voiced to me their agreement with myself and JOCO regarding this subject have chosen to simply remain silent and out of the way. If these friendships are really so valuable, why is it the duty of the one being called a liar to look the other way. Why does not blame fall on the silent who stood by and said nothing?<br/> <QUOTE><s> </e></QUOTE> Answer: disappointment Yes. 'let down' No.<br/> Answer with clarification: You may be disappointed by his choice to walk away from the board but he did not personally let you down. If you feel that he did, then that is your choice but I'd ask you... what kind of friend arbitrarily asks another friend to walk through a mile of crap just so that he or she can feel better about themselves?<br/> <QUOTE><s> </e></QUOTE> Answer: Yes<br/> Answer with detail: Yes, without question. Sometimes friends can be bad friends at times. You are viewing JOCO as a bad friend at this point, I will not speak for him but if I were in his shoes, I would say the same about yourself.<br/> <br/> Now... as for Jeff Ramsey.<br/> <br/> You can say Jeff was reaching out to find common ground.. If by common ground you mean the sources of my information. Which BTW, I believe you know now that I work(ed) with their family members...I don't think that is much of a secret anymore. There is nothing like hearing the 'truth' out of a well intentioned and well connected booster of the program, meanwhile you just heard the kid and his mother say the exact opposite. But why give that up at the time? To win an internet argument? So he can run back to his email list or a Volboard and go ape with it?? No thank you.<br/> <br/> As for Jack O'Brien. I respect Jack. He ticked off as many, if not more, ND fans than he did any other group here. He was always thinking outside the box. His stances on why ND is struggling, why they are not 'back yet' and why they will continue to struggle are both valid and have stood the test of time. We have seen these play out. Jack was never one to simply 'get in line' and he certainly didn't give two spits if any one of us agreed with him. That being said, at the end of the day Jack is the same guy who would sit down and buy you a beer knowing well that you find each other equally full of sh*t. For full disclosure, I do not remember Jack making an attack on Jeff's wife, I sincerely do not. I'm not saying it did or didn't happen, I just don't remember that at all.</r>
Sure George <t>why not...<br/> <br/> because moving on is a lot easier than saying.. you know what, I just might have been wrong there.<br/> <br/> i love how JOCO is the one who let you all down for not swallowing the turd burger but others can shine in the good graces of your lord for not having the gumption to swallow their own pride and admit they were wrong..</t>
Tom Sorry to interject but at dinner with Jim and Diane they mentioned how they were looking ahead to next season. They especially were happy that you and Cindy were visiting when the Vols played in LA this fall. Sure didn't sound like there had been any breakdowns in communication. Now back to our regularly scheduled debate.... :roll:
Corey, maybe I was a little too vague. That second Tennessee fan that left, because of Jack O’Brien’s actions was me. The wife he attacked was mine. The member you and JO'Co worked with behind the scenes was me. That whole speech you gave about Jeff Ramsey was in response to what I said about my own departure from the boards. No amount of clarification makes that Yes response right. I tried working behind the scenes like you did with me. I listened to you and JO'Co tell me: “it is the diversity of viewpoints that makes this board fun.” JO’Co gave us a perspective from the West coast that was different. I looked forward each morning to his late night posts. I was even on an e-mail list where I received periodic messages from Jim and that has stopped. I don’t know how to react to that other than thinking Jim has turned his back on someone that did absolutely nothing to deserve that treatment. Tell me how I am wrong with that assumption.
Gip, Jim sent me one e-mail asking about Singapore where I was teaching at the time. That was on January 19. I replied that day and started on the topic of trying to get Jim back on the boards. I would never post what someone wrote to me but I will copy and paste what I worte to him: I never received a reply to this note. I hoped that this would open a discussion but when I never received a response, that sounds like communications broke down to me.
Corey, certain topics can cause incendiary moments and all of us here have written things in the heat of the moment that, on thinking about it later, we wish we could take back. Everyone here analyzes life's events based on their personal experiences and prejudices and are guilty, to varying degrees, of regional or cultural myopia dealing with contrary opinions. I certainly am guilty of it but I do not feel that there is anyone here who is an innocent. I really don't see anything good coming out of this. Speaking as a bit of an outsider on this, your dad is treated, and deservedly so, as a Cult hero by the other Irish (and non Irish) posters. They adore him. If I had a nickel for every time Terry, Sid, George, or Mike would, when posting something, write that they were able to express themselves as eloquently or intelligently or cogently or as wittily as your Dad, I would be living a much better life than I am presently living. If I had admirers like your dad has here, I most assuredly would not be shutting them out of life because they may have written something that disparaged my virtue and morality. Right now, the only adoration that is marginally, and I mean marginally, similar to that received by your Dad here is when I infrequently get back to GR and Lloyd goes into canine rapture when I enter the home. I value this canine's props deeply. He could rip up and then **** on my best suit the next time I get to GR but we will still be going to the dog park that day and playing catch for those minor indiscretions would not justify my reducing my fan base from 1 to zero. Now, I realize that your Dad's circle of friends and admirers are greater than mine and I acknowledge that a teacher's bar for tolerance of imagined or real personal attacks is set much higher than a comp attorneys whose daily activities usually include some form of assault on his character. But, did Elvis quit throwing our his scarves to his adoring throng when one or two of fans told him he looked a little too thick in the waist in his new jumpsuit? No. Did Sinatra walk out of a concert because one of his fans farted in the middle of a song? No. A little noblisse oblige is in order here. The subjects are sullen, confused, and hurt by the Royal Boycott. Time for the King, regardless of whatever disappointments and grievances he may have with his flock, to appear in public again to the cheers of his admirers. P.S. Glad to see you back, Corey. Even at your most testy moments, having the opportunity to read your comments makes it a more enjoyable day.
bobda first <r>1. <QUOTE><s> </e></QUOTE> I do not agree with that at all. You vastly underestimate your fanbase which includes both myself and JOCO. Your fan base is every bit as grand.<br/> <br/> 2. He is not the 'king' type. He really isn't so taking those comparisons may be where this ethos in all of this is being missed. He's a guy who ditched his own future to raise a family, at the onset of a time in which it would have been totally acceptable to pursue athletic and academic fame as opposed to becoming a family man. My brother has that trait and I know it bothers my dad to this day. He doesn't want to be great. He wants to be one of the lads. That, IMHO, is what makes the cuts deeper. He saw things more fraternal than he did royal.<br/> <br/> He would be the first to tell you that even as a coach and educator, he is more of a quite father figure type.. a man for the common man, He leads with a bit of flare but he is always the approachable one. The people's leader type. He'd also be the first to tell you that we are quite different in that regard. I am the one to hoist the black flag and begin slitting throats in order to get what I need. Tactical approaches are only required when the obstacles in front of you are too big to run over is my approach. JOCO is different. I appreciate the tactical, I learned that approach from him. I earnestly believe that you just can't make everyone happy so why try. Then again, my Dad has always insisted that I should be a lawyer and does to this day. <br/> <br/> I will keep trying. I vowed to my mother that I would. The reason I raised the defcon level on this thread was because it somehow had turned into JOCO letting people down while they walk away with clean hands. Its that mentality that played a heavy hand in his departure.</r>
Tom <r>Sorry for the 'speech'.. the fact remains on the 'behind the scenes action. That had happened prior with Jeff Ramsey where he all but called me a liar because I wouldn't reveal my sources regarding events at Tennessee and involving Tennessee recruiting.<br/> <br/> I DO remember the Jack vs McCords thing now. Thank you for refreshing my memory. Yeah Jack was a bit of an asshole there and I wish he would have stepped forward to apologize sooner, if at all.. But by that time you had become defensive and there was no going back.<br/> <br/> I saw where Jack was coming from. A poster on here is a poster. It is the ideas, programs and practices that are to be attacked and I think that panned out like Cindy was a gal so she should be treated differently. As you know better than I or anyone else, Cindy is a little gal but she could take all of us before supper cools. <E></E> Still, I agree with you in part.<br/> <br/> As for the answer never being Yes.. I simply will have to agree to disagree with you. At the time, that was clearly the dominant topic of the board. Sometimes silence is worse..</r>
:cry: I am sorry about starting all of this it just hurt to see jim getting blamed, for as Gip says taking a time out..... I sorry Jim isnt replying to letters I will ask him about it when he gets home .....Tom, Jim and I were hoping you guys would be here for the Tennessee game we are ordering tickets/ the others you know who you are, I am trying very hard pulling all strings for the Ohio game you wanted tickets for. We are hopefully coming bck there in the fall not sure when,maybe if when you write to Jim dont mention the board or coming back to it ,maybe just wrte him as a friend I do know he cares for you .Just right now he doesnt know the direction he needs to take . As Mike learned at dinner he also has 246 unruly somewhat dangerous 8th grade students that takes up alot of his time and energy .. So for Now I do apologize I didnt mean for it to get out of hand I was just upset to see what was posted and the chance he might have read it ........Sorry... I am really sorry I wont post anymoreI dont want to cause any further issues .You are all very special to me (I dont get out much).............diane
Corey, Thanks for kind words. I think it goes without saying that I consider you a kindred spirit and friend. Re the "King" remark, I was not trying to be demeaning. Rather, my view of the situation, based on what, 12 years of posting, is that the O'Connor clan is viewed reverentially by the remaining members of the Irish contingent on this board and that the flame wars in December are not the type of thing that should cause a dislocation of this relationship, especially given the high and genuine regard that they feel for your dad and you. The conference and regional biases that we all hold have good and bad points for they lead to discussions that possess depth and variety but can spin out of control. At that time, I posted at least two ugly notes to your Dad which I felt then were appropriate responses to comments I honestly felt were uncharacteristically abusive. Now, two months later, I roll my eyes at what I wrote and wonder how in the **** could I get so worked up, so nasty, and so stupid over a friggen discussion about college football. As someone earlier pointed out, time will probably rectify the situation but, and I do not want to sound maudlin, one evil message from AJNJ's death is that we should not be so caviler in thinking that time is a loyal ally. Or that the enjoyment and education I receive from this place and the respect that I have for it participants should remain unexpressed.
Hell, I like ALL of you. We don't always agree and sometimes we chafe each others behinds but if we all thought alike it would be pretty boring. Bottom line: If you all don't get along I 'm going to instruct JIF to get the crew together for a road trip. We'll call it the "Attitude Adjustment Tour" Capice?
I'm not sure how many times I said I was sorry if anything I said offended JO'Co. But for the record I don't personally believe that challenging somebody's statement, even using the term BS, rises to the level of calling them liars. I just wasn't buying his argument or your argument and I made a counter assertion. We've been disagreeing over this whole Pac10 thing for a long time, wheter it was the strenght of schedule or wheter or not they play good football. But it's just been a bunch of guys talkin' sh$t over sports. I've certainly taken my share of sh&t from the west coast bunch over Texas, you guys have never let me forget the UCLA game. I hope he see's that he has a lot of friends that respect him here, but also are willing to engage him and challenge him when they don't see things exactly as he see's them. I doubt if he or you really just want to be patted on the back and told that whatever you say is good. Terry
George <r><QUOTE><s> </e></QUOTE> just make sure you pack JIF's inhaler and bring the blankies for the boys. its going to be a long cold road.<br/> <br/> <E></E></r>