How smart is this moderator? (Golf clap) I would buy a Tebow shirt for the fantastic young man he is/represents. OUTSTANDING......OUTSTANDING CHARACTER AND ROLE MODEL FOR TODAY'S YOUTH.....but....(ok, here we go Gator Fans)....he's not a QB. It's a passing league, and will only morph into more so of a league (see Colin Coherd)....he wasn't brought up that way (Pop Warner, HS, Coll,)....how many times have we seen it in Pro FB?.....name me a below avg QB (check Tim's stats for the year) that won a SB....that didn't have a world class defense, as Doc pointed out.
The "W" is the only stat that matters? As a franchise, definitely. As a team, definitely. But as a QB that had darn near nothing to do with the "W" (other than the aforementioned intangibles)? Uh, no, gotta disagree right there. While Tebow was reeling off win after win after win against Oakland, KC, NYJ, and San Diego, here were the much touted performances that had such a huge impact on the end result: Oakland: 10/21, 124 yds, 2 TDs Kansas City: 2/8, 69 yds, 1 TD NY Jets: 9/20, 104 yds, 0 TDs San Diego: 9/18, 143 yds, 1 TD Mad skillz. Or, for your comparison, Orton's first four games of the season: 1-3. Tebow's last four games of the season: 1-3. Yet it's all about the "W"? Come on, George. You can like the kid all you want, but you can't tell me he'd even be in your top ten on your wishlist of starting QBs.
And with all of the comparable stats I have given you ( Peyton Manning, Troy Aikman ) with first year starters what amongst those stats has convinced you of the above? Kes....your sack comparison with Orton still leaves Tebow about 400-500 yards on the plus side rushing. And lord knows the WR drops he experienced this year were significant to his lower passing percentage. I agree one thing he will get better at is getting rid of the ball to open receivers a little quicker......but does any first year starter have that aspect down pat? Speaking of Pat....as in Pats......the weapons that brady has as his targets makes Denvers receiver targets look like Pop Warner
Apples and Oranges...both Manning and Aikman played in college offenses that developed them as passers and were recognized for their excellent fundamentals as QB's and were #1 overall draft picks expected to be franchise QB's. They both played with just awful teams their first year as starters, not 8-8 teams with good defenses like Tebow. Tebow played in an college offense that used him as a single wing TB, and due to the great talent arournd him when he threw the ball it was more likely to wide open WR's with big windows to complete the pass. It was recognized from the outset that he had (as a passer) horrible fundamentals and most people were shocked that the Bronco's used a 1st round draft pick on him even a late 1st round. Most thought he would be at best a 3rd round pick. Based on what we have seen, I'd say 4th or 5th round would have been more reasonable.
4-12....worst in franchise history in 2010 and 1-4 this season....without Tebow and 9-5 with him. Same team....different Qb. W's matter......
I haven't looked at the receiver corps this year at New England to see how they compare with Denver's, but in years past they weren't all-world. The Patriots have been very conservative with buying talent (Randy Moss was a the notable exception) with Belichik arguing that with his system you can plug in almost anybody. I would argue that Brady is such a good QB that it makes his receiver corps look that much better. One observation that would seem to be irrefutable evidence that the dropped passes aren't Tebow's problem is that I find it hard to believe that Denver's receivers all of a sudden forgot how to catch the ball starting in week 5. Orton's completion percentage through the first four games was 52%, 60%, 62%, and 69 (59.9% through those four games in Denver). Starting in week 5, Tebow's was 40%, 48%, 46%, 48%, 25%, 45%, 50%, 67%, 53%, 50%, 45%, 27% (46.5% the rest of the season). Nice try, although you again have provided an arguement as to how much better Orton was on the same team.
You want completion percentage and 1-4 or you want lower % and 8-5?? Ws matter.... Quick....name me the Broncos TE....I don't even know who the guy is.. Do the names Hernandez and Gronkowski mean anything?? It's quite an impressive TE tandem for the Pats.....at least I was very impressed with what they did against that "great" Denver defense....
Yes, of course I want the QB that gives me the best chance to WIN. And everything, except the W (which had about 2% to do with Tebow) points to Orton giving you the better chance. What, SPECIFICALLY, has Tebow done to convince you that he is an amazing QB? What has he done, SPECIFICALLY, to make you believe that he is the QB of the future? I want to know, besides his great work ethic, leadership ability, attitude, doing things the right way, what on the field accomplishments should lead ANYONE to believe he is even an average QB? It's all about the "W" you say? If he were the one that got you those Ws then I'd agree, but he did squat to get them. Going from 1-3 to start without him and ending 7-5 throughout the season with him doesn't mean you wouldn't have been better than 8-8 with Orton. And your arguement continues to be that the wins were attributable to Tebow, while the losses, especially against New England, were the fault of his receivers, his tight ends, the defense, but definitely NOT the horrendous "skills" he put on display out there. You put me in a position to trash the career of, by most accounts, one of the best people in the league, which I hate. I absolutely admire the guy for what he is. I am just fed up with certain individuals giving accolades where none are deserved, and by all evidence, is likely to be none. I wouldn't have him as my starting QB. Period.
That's what I like about you. Others put thoughtful analysis and supporting evidence into their posts, discussing what leads them to the conclusions they draw, in an ongoing discourse of ideas. Whereas you continue to give us poignant arguements such as: and: and: Such joy to have my research and ideas completely ignored, with no refutation or analysis whatsoever offered, or discussion of those ideas. Discussions with you remind me of putting a two year-old to bed. "You need to go to bed now." Nuh-uh. "Yes, we need to get up early so it's time for bed." Nuh-uh. I have watched him play. I have seen his lack of fundamental skills as discussed above. You have provided nothing with which to further the discussion. Tebow may be good enough to be a backup at this point in his career, MAY be. He is worse than Orton. Period. Enjoy "discussing" this gasmotic lovefest with yourself. I'm out.
Kes I have also put forth lots of stats and data that you also choose to ignore. I am at work so exhaustive replies to your comments are a little difficult but really......you watched all of those Denver wins and the Pittsburgh game and you truly feel Tebow had 2% or less to do with those wins! Really??
This topic beaten to death. Everybody likes Tebow, nobody but Dave see's him as a future star at QB, but everybody will be glad to be proven wrong.
Not necessarily Terry. But unlike others I am not pre-sold that he isn't going to be a star either. And all of the stats and numbers do not show that either.....most especially when you are counting results. I have been in sales all of my 35 year career and it has always been a tenet of mine that a nice slate of sales calls made....and reports written up etc. do not hold a candle to the sales actually made. I guess I am just too results oriented for you guys. :wink: 8)
You're right BT.... I'm not touching that Mel Kyper/Merrill Hoge toxic Kool-aid they wanna serve about Tim T......