Where do I say that Michigan specifically is not a very good defense? Are they better than LSU? No... LSU #2 and Michigan #6. Does Michigan make up part of the top 9 that OSU faced and is that group significantly lower ranked on average than the top 9 UF faced.....yes.
The most penalized teams often has to do with the nature of the offense and the inexperience of the class. Passing offenses do incur more penalties due to holding. West Virginia is a spread option and because of the constant changing at the LOS and audiblising gets many illegal procedure penalties. Year in and year out, these teams will always appear among the top 25 most penalized teams in the country. Florida Texas Tech Miami Florida State West Virginia BYU S Florida In fact each of these teams made the top 25 during the last 5 years with the exception of one of Zooks Florida teams. Other notables Oregon,Oregon St, Hawaii It has more to do with the nature of the beast than the officiating. In the Big 10, Zook ran the ball more often than he passed while at Florida. That's no surprise because Juice could not throw and is more of a threat running the ball.
AJ Coach Year Gms Pens Yds Yds/game Yds/penalty Per game UM 2006 13 110 838 64.46 7.62 8.46 SS 2006 12 77 585 48.75 7.60 6.42 RZ 2006 12 59 460 38.33 7.80 4.92 2006 UF rush - 433 - 54.5% pass - 362 - 45.5% 2006 USC rush - 373 - 50.9% pass - 360 - 49.1% 2006 ILL rush - 434 - 56.7 pass - 332 - 43.3% Not a huge difference in offensive mix, especially between ILL and UF. T FYI, I'm not proclaiming there is a bias by SEC officials against UF .... I'm just showing why so many UF fans "feel" there is such.
15 years of players and three different coaching styles and several different offensive philosophies yield the same result in penalty proclivity. From Dallas Baker pushing off (supposedly) vs. LSU last year on a crucial long reception to iffy blocks in the back on about 5 TD kick returns for Brandon James this year that were called back.. the beat goes on for Florida and penalties....
AJ, You make several good points....however, it has become clear that rational thought has no place in the Gator penalty discussion. It's paranoia in its most insidious form...... :wink:
You hopeless whiner. Two points: 1) If it happens five times, it's not iffy. 2) Except for an "iffy" block in the back call during Rocket Ismael's KO return in the 1991 Orange bowl, ND beats Colorado and maybe wins the national championship. I clearly recall being heartbroken, but I don't recall whining that the refs were crooked or out to get us. Grow up.
So...you guys studied those penalty numbers Gaterz put up with respect to how the last three Florida coaches have fared penalty wise at other schools vs. their time at Florida. These numbers indicate a huge difference and make a compelling argument in that they were all unusually heavily penalized while at Florida and much less so at other schools. It ain't the coach it's the school and how can that be? The last two times in games at Tenn with two different coaches I have witnessed and pointed out disparity in the way the game was called i.e...the infamous Baker PF call and last year on defensive offsides for UF that was turned around and called motion on Fla later when Tenn did the same exact thing. These kinds of calls are why the disparity in numbers. The disparity exists and it's not the coach. Nothing about these numbers makes any sense rationally and you can't explain honestly why there is such a difference when these coaches were at Florida vs. at other schools. Heck Spurrier is even in the same damned conference! WRT to James if you have watched time after time as I have his beautiful TD returns get called back in SEC games for "blocks in the back" you would be a little frustrated with that as a Gator fan. I can't think of any of these that appeared to "spring"James for the return or that were not of a questionable nature. Bad luck I guess...or B/S
Compare apples to apples Zook 2004 rush 415-50.5 % pass 407-49.5 % This is not a huge difference ?? In any event my point does not only apply to passing teams but to spread option teams as well. Even while undefeated at Utah, Meyer's team was heavily penalized. West Virginia runs the ball almost 70% of the time and still is among the leaders in penalties.
MCG, As the game approaches and we have all pounded our chests ad nauseum, I was wondering if you could give us a scouting report on the game officials, ie. Conference affiliation, ages, preconceived biases, physical problems, history of bad calls etc. Then perhaps you could handicap them individually as to which ones are most likely to make the call that screws the Gators. :wink:
Actually George I am expecting an extremely qualified, unbiased crew for the BCS title game. It's a national stage and all aspects including the field conditions (I hope) should be tip top. That doesn't mean that mistakes won't be made but hopefully with a competent unbiased replay official they could be corrected and the penalties will at least be thrown with fairness to both teams in mind and with the utmost integrity. That's all anyone could expect from any college football game but it doesn't always work out that way in the heat of the moment in the SEC and elsewhere at times.
AJ Run/pass mix for UF and ILL in 2006 was not that different yet penalties were. You should have compared ILL 2006 to UF 2003. Mix was more comparable, ILL 2006 56.7% run, UF 2003 52.7% run. Penalties for ILL 2006 totaled 59 in 12 games while Zook at UF in 2003 had 96 in 13 games. Better yet, look at UF 2004 and ILL 2005, both under Zook ILL 2005 rush - 438 - 54% pass - 371 - 46% penalties - 69 in 11 games UF 2004 rush - 415 - 50.5% pass - 407 - 49.5% penalties - 106 in 12 games The season mix changes by -36 pass and +23 rush ...... and there are 37 fewer penalties. T Do ya have that info, yet???? SEC teams with more penalties than UF? 2006 - none 2005 - none 2004 - none 2003 - uga, msu 2002- here's the group you mentioned - bama, ken, aub, ark, tenn, uga, lsu 2001 - msu 2000 - uky Hmmmm ...... seven seasons under 3 different coaching staffs and only one in which UF was not the (or one of the) most penalized teams in the conference. What's really interesting about 2002 - Zook's 1st season - is that UF's # of penalties was not substantially changed from other seasons - 91 in 13 games - but that those other teams were apparently substantially worse than usual.
These numbers posted by Gaterz do point to a striking tendency for Florida the school to get an abundance of penalties called on them and I don't have an answer for it and all anybody has offered up here so far is trite, unfunny and childish responses. Does anyone have a legitmate idea why this should be? Avg. penalties per game Steve Spurrier at Fla: 8.58 Steve Spurrier at SC: 6.21 Ron Zook at Fla: 8.08 Ron Zook at Il: 5.57 Urban at Fla: 8.48 Urban at BG/UT: 6.77 It seems too consistent over too many years for this to be a coincidence. There must have been a mix of over 80 different assistant coaches in this time as well. And the fact Spurrier still coaches in the SEC is curious. Anyone have any mature comments about this or ideas as to why the disparity?
"What's really interesting about 2002 - Zook's 1st season - is that UF's # of penalties was not substantially changed from other seasons - 91 in 13 games - but that those other teams were apparently substantially worse than usual." Good stats Gaterz. I didn't even have to look it up and I already knew what the results were. Now...brace yourself for the adolescent responses to hard evidence.
MCG I don't know if SEC officials have a specific, conscious bias against UF. However, I look at that call against Dallas baker in the 2004 game in Knoxville and just wonder .... especially after the official and SEC admitted their should have been offsetting penalties and the clock management after the blown penalty was incorrect. Of course .... as you mentioned, some of the ???? calls on B James' kick returns in 2006 and Leak's "incomplete fumble" at Auburn, earlier this season .... just make ya shake your head.
Gaterz....you realize B James would be AP freshman of the year were it not for those calls? His returns that were called back like the one against Ga and the one against Tenn were in big time games and neither of those so called "blocks' had anything to do with his ability to get the ball to the endzone. If they ever just let him play he will set SEC return records. I look for him to get a big one against Ohio State....that won't be called back.
This is not a logical argument. Zook doesn’t run the same offense at Illinois that he did at Florida. He doesn’t even have the same offensive co-ordinator. Let’s see, he had Zaunbrecher for 2 years who was then demoted for Larry Fedora. He comes to Illinois and names Locksley his OC in 2005. I understood this as a reward for being such a hot shot recruiter. They don’t play in the same conference and there are differences in how games are officiated from conference to conference. You need to fall back on the fundamental reasons why some teams are more penalized than others. 1. level of aggressiveness 2. level of experience 3. complexity of offense 4. level of competition 5. talent level of the team 6. Nature of offense, Pass offenses are generally more penalized than rushing offenses due to holding calls, WVU the exception to the rule. One should not assume that being heavily penalized is such a bad thing. Some of the most successful teams in football do incur higher penalties as a result of aggressive play. If I’m not mistaken, the New England Patriots are a great example. Neither you nor Mo are willing to admit that teams coached by Spurrier, Zook, and Urban are highly aggressive and heavily penalized teams. Somehow Spurrier goes from being a highly aggressive coach to such a whimp at SC. Did it ever occur to you that because his talent level is not as great, he can least afford to maintain the same level of aggressiveness? Sometimes better to be more conservative and stay within striking distance than to floor it and get wiped out. At SC, Spurrier does not have the same quality athletes that he had at Florida, and consequently can’t call the same type of aggressive plays and overcome mistakes like he could at Florida. Here’s the real azzkicker Gator. Illinois was the LEAST PENALIZED team in Div1A in 2004. Zook took them from # 1 to # 42 in his 1st year. Did he take the SEC refs with him?
He Mo are you doing that Spinning Gator again? Why did you average BG/UT together ? Is it because you didn’t like Urban’s 7.5 penalties per game at Utah? He did improve from 86th most penalized team in 2003 to 84th most penalized team in 2004. How about Bowling Green ? As a 1st year rookie coach he must have treaded the water lightly as Bowling Green went from the 6th least penalized team in 2000 to 23rd in his 1st year 2001. At least he did better than Zook who took the Illini from # 1 least penalized team in 2004 to 42nd least penalized team in 2005.
I took the BG/UT numbers because that's what Gaterz posted and I assume it is also because that is the two other head coaching postions for UM whereas Zook has only the IL job and Spurrier has only SC of late although I will try to find his stats from Duke. I'll give you an A for effort in trying to give a rational explanation for such compelling comparative data but your hypothesis is at least as much speculation as what I am speculating. Who knows...maybe the truth lies somewhere in between but I do note again that while in 2002 the SEC as a whole was penalized more than usual and therefore closed in on UF in avg. penalties per game that year... the rest of the years that Gaterz listed has UF at or near the top in SEC penalties over three different coaching regimes with three entirely different philosophies.