As I understood it, Sandusky was a former coach and came in contact with the victims through a charity he ran.
I'm not talking fair, castrate Sandusky, dig up Joe Pa and use him as a hat rack I'm okay with this..... But the collegiate players had zero involvement in the sodomy.....
JOCO Gipper, Why would the NCAA want Penn State as a member? That's very much the question here. Jerry Sandusky started coaching at Penn State at the conclusion of his playing career there in 1966. He left briefly for 2 years before returning in 1969. He never left the program again despite the fact that he was considered to be one of, if not the, greatest defensive assistant coaches in the game. He spent 1 year as the DL guy before cementing himself as the LB coach, and then became the LB coach/Defensive Coordinator in 1977. He stayed there until he 'retired' in 1999. When you think of Penn State, and Joe Pa's legacy, what are they known as? (spoiler, it's Linebacker U). Were they known for their whiz bang offenses and flashy style? No, it was the defense. Joe Pa rode Sandusky while Sandusky was riding children. There are accounts that the Sandusky child molestation was known going back to the 1970s. This is not about the NCAA adjudicating criminal matters. This is about the NCAA making decisions about who is, and who is not, a member institution. Penn State needs to be let go. At this point in time, that' the ony thing the NCAA can do to save face. They've given back Penn State everything with very minimal actual damage. Just part ways. If you actually read the NCAA rules, and I have countless times, almost any of them can be twisted (just ask KP) to hammer you if there is a competitive advantage gained through your actions/inactions. Quite clearly, not only was one gained for the program but the entire University was lifted to a level of national prominence due to the efforts of the football program..and their efforts to protect a pedophile.
For the record I agree with Corey's reasoning and tone. I also agree that JoePa's wins should not be restored....they should actally erase them all. But going forward the millions of people who are connected to PennSt through legacy or residency or regionality who are and have remained innocent of all of those criminal misdeeds by Sandusky should not continue to be punished and their interests should not be permanently hijacked by the unforgivable actions of a few.
Re-reading Gip's responses, something is clear to me. I'm not being shitty or sarcastic in saying this, so please don't take it that way. Gipper doesn't know who Jerry Sandusky is/was and just how long these abuses went on. 1st of all, I could very much make the claim that Sandusky is Penn State football more than Joe Pa. Joe Pa is the cultish, affable figurehead but when you look at the meat and potatoes of the program, Penn State was Penn State because of Jerry Sandusky's squads..not Joe Pa's. Keep in mind, Joe Pa started in 66, Sandusky's senior year. Now, the second reservation that you may be having is that the actual rape only took place AFTER he coached. This is ********. The criminal charges stem from activity in that post coaching time frame due to statute of limitations and also, those are easier to prove. The issue at hand here is these charges/rumors go back to the 1970s, but the campus PD refused to look into them. The oldest known accusation against Sandusky dates back to the 1960s. The reason there's no charges dating back then is that people claimed there was a system wide coverup of these activities involving everyone. We've now seen absolute proof of the coverup. There's really no reason to doubt those people who made claims back then even though the world laughed at them and law enforcement told them to go away...
Dave, That's just it. They're all guilty. You can't separate the German people from the Nazi party (no matter how hard we've tried over the years). Without the cult of football/Joe Pa, there's no way. As bat **** crazy, and they're ******* crazy, as the Alabama fan base is.. there's no way this could have happened there. There's no way this could have happened in a great many places. This goes beyond football and god damn it I'm waiting for more than a small group of people to see that. This is about an entire community that built themselves into a 'something' on a national level and did so because they harbored a child molester....
Apparently in 2007 the Gainsville PD became aware that Aaron Hernandez was a suspect in a shooting of 2 men in a local nightspot. Nothing became of that investigation probably because of his involvement with the Gator football team. I say we envoke the Corey rule and throw Florida out of the NCAA. We know back during the Barnett years that players and recruits were raping women at parties but it wasn't until years later that the coverup was learned. Buffs, you're out of the NCAA. In fact we probably could find a few more to toss out and we could eventually have enough to start the Corey Conference. As and attorney, I've been trained that the very first thing that you look at in litigation is the jurisdiction of the judicial body. In other words do they have the power to grant the relief requested. Now let's talk about the absurd, irrational demand that Penn. St. be thrown out of the NCAA. That means that coaches and athletes in dozens of non football sports would lose their ability to compete in NCAA contests. Does anyone (I'm speaking to the rational people out there) think that a court would approve of that? If I owned a farm, I'd bet that they slap the NCAA silly. If the football program somehow gained a competitive advantage harboring a monster (somewhat difficult to prove) than give the PROGRAM the death penalty. Of course that has tremendous consequences not only to the local economy in central Penn. but also causes a serious disruption to the whole Big Ten made up of 13 "innocent" members of the NCAA. Then again everybody in Penn., everybody in the Big Ten knew that Sandusky was a pedophile **** em all. .
From time to time, I've disagreed with gipper (Can you say Powlus? ), but I've always maintained that I want him as my attorney. This debate shows why. I agree completely with his position. I also understand the anger and desire for retribution shown by my friends George and Corey, but in the end, I believe that Gip is correct.
You're comparing an individual incident of possible collaboration between the program, the school, the police department and the community with very little evidence (in some cases) of said collaboration other than innuendo. Compare that to Penn State, in which you have an ongoing collaboration between the program, the school, the police department and the community. You have testimony to this fact. The cases that are too old, or too hard due to time passed, are all mirror images of the cases that were proven. You can argue that it is a 'single instance' but that is a single instance that covered 33 years. No one is saying they can't play football, or that their program has to go away. They can go play NAIA football tomorrow (if they'll have them). As I said, at some point in time, you have to ask yourself 'WTF are we doing here?' Please do tell me who has shown remorse in this situation? This is a program built on a foundation of lies and on the backs of raped children. That's not hyperbole, that's court testimony. Keep in mind, you have several employees who witnessed these events and 'passed along' the information. Why did no one just say 'screw this, I'm calling the cops.' You had a man having sex with boys in the showers on campus and people thought that they needed to run it by their supervisors or by Joe Pa himself before calling the authorities. What does that speak toward the mindset of that campus? Your Nuremberg style defense of the Penn State program is understandable in so much that you are arguing the NCAA overstepped their boundaries. Everyone passed along the info and then some people did nothing about it. It was just one big game of oops. I'd counter argue that if the NCAA does not have the oversight to judge the moral fiber of their member institutions (even though these conduct related items are quite clearly spelled out in both law and bylaw of their charter), exactly what jurisdiction does the NCAA have? If the NCAA can punish both player and program for former players taking cash or receiving favors, (which you have many times) how can you possibly argue with any merit, that the NCAA cannot punish the program for a criminal conspiracy to protect a pedophile to save the 'good name' of their program and coaching staff?
Gipper there is one thing I want to ask you. You said that from your understanding Sandusky used his charity to do this. Ok, but my understanding is that he maintained and office and presence at Penn State in the years after his retirement right up to when this broke. If that is true does it change your position at all?
here's just one: Sportsmanship and Ethical Conduct (NCAA Bylaw 2.4) For intercollegiate athletics to promote the character development of participants, to enhance the integrity of higher education and to promote civility in society, student-athletes, coaches, and all others associated with these athletics programs and events should adhere to such fundamental values as respect, fairness, civility, honesty and responsibility. These values should manifest not only in athletics participation but also in the broad spectrum of activities affecting the athletics program.
There are many times I wish Tod Jeffers was still with us. This is certainly one of those times. I don't know if you guys will remember this, but there was an incident way back when in 99/00 I guess. Anyway, Jerry Sandusky was considered to be the long time heir apparent to the Penn State coaching job. Not only was he passed over, but he was 'retired.' At the time, Tod was livid and this was proof that Joe Pa's massive ego would crush even his long time friend/coach.. and make no mistake, it's not like this was some random GA. Sandusky was Joe's right hand man for more than 3 decades. I remember at the time Tod just gushing that there had to be something more. It just made no sense at all. Many of the people 'behind the scenes' wanted Joe to move along and Jerry to get his shot. it was just a strange time that just didn't make a lot of sense. In hindsight now, it makes perfect sense. The staff was aware of Sandusky's activities in a way that could no longer be denied from 94-99 (while he was Penn State's defensive coordinator) From the evidence listed here http://deadspin.com/5925401/joe-pat...-to-keep-coaching-as-long-as-he-was-the-coach It seems that Joe Pa gave him the opportunity to keep coaching, which seems to go against what Tod thought about Joe's ego being the thing that forced Sandusky out. Keep in mind, after they knew this guy was a pedo, they still (in his retirement) gave him full access to the University's facilities..
One thing I've noticed here when "debating" a controversial issues, whether sports or politics, is that no one ever changes his/her mind. When faced with a counter position, some folks simply dig in deeper and ratchet up the volume to the point where it becomes white noise, at least to me. In this case, if you remove the emotional element from one side of the debate (which I acknowledge is very difficult; emotions are justifiably high), the Corey/George side agrees with gipper more than they disagree. Excuse me while I retreat back into my soundproof room. :wink:
No Bill it doesn't one bit. Sandusky's Second Mile Charity was quite a prominent entity with honorary directors including Cal Ripken Jr., Franco Harris, and Arnold Palmer. It raised millions of dollars to help troubled kids and there were some among the tens of thousands of kids that weren't molested by him. That the school let him use an office for his charity doesn't surprise me one bit. Some of the football camps that they ran were at the school's satellite campuses. I assume to some the school being affiliated with his charity just enhanced the brand. Maybe to the "everybody knew, everybody covered up" crowd that was important but I can look at it from another perspective.
oh you guys I'm still not sure Mike gets it. What about the molestation that took place while he was the defensive coordinator at Penn State? I can see the case Mike is making in that he was retired and simply abused his access to facilities at Penn State. That is not the entire picture. He was molesting kids while he was the defensive coordinator at Penn State. This isn't speculation. There are emails showing the back and forth between all of those parties concerned in this showing they were all aware of the 'investigations.' When there was finally an investigation they couldn't bury, he 'retired' the next year. It should also be mentioned that after his 'retirement' they hired him back in an emergency capacity to prepare for a bowl game (Texas A&M I believe)? He brought one of the one of the children (victim 4, I believe) to stay with him (and sexually assault him) in the hotel in San Antonio. These are things that happened while he was still employed by Penn State as their DC. I understand his charity helped thousands. I understand his defenses were the best in the game. I'm not the smart lawyer here. I just want someone to spell it out for me. How many molested children is the acceptable number to counter balance having a generous charity or a top flight defense? I didn't realize this is like hunting. What's the bag limit on raped kids, so I won't get all riled up again?
Sid, Oh I see it, I just don't think that Mike understands this isn't about his activities during his retirement. I've seen no indication from Gip to acknowledge Sandusky's activities while he was the defensive coordinator at Penn State. I am starting to think Mike hasn't read the Freeh Report, or any of the evidence submitted at trial that clearly shows that, indeed, everyone knew and everyone covered up/lied. That which is not covered by the coverup, is covered by the culture of fear that existed on that campus in which JoePa was a God. I am sure we can all recall at least one Tod Jeffers post that touched on that. George, LOL that damned Gipper is down there in Florida, he's probably sleeping on a nice big boat.. fish everywhere.. and a golf cart nicer than my second car