Then again...how do you prevent the 16 year olds of today in Iraq who witness their older family members or friends who get killed in one way or another even if they are deemed to be insurgents or perhaps are innocently killed by sectarian violence but nonetheless by the time they are 20 years old... 4 years later.... become insurgents themselves due to seething anger because of continued U.S. presence on their soil?
Your whole premise that the cause of violence is the location of US troops in Iraq. Do you think that if the US left that the violence would stop? Do you think that the Suni and Shia could peacefull coexist if the US just left? And then there is your comment about the war not now being popular. So let me get this straight, even if 90% of the country supports a war at it's beginning, the minute that polls show less than 50% support the war we just pack up and leave. That's exactly the point I made in my last post. To win a war against the US you just have to sit back and wait for Americans with the attention span of a 30 minute sitcom to tire of daily reports of casualties and let their media do their job of denouncing the American administration and its role in the war. We have to stay as long as it takes to prove we have the will to succeed in such a war. It's that simple.
I don't feel by any means that the violence is soley caused by U.S. presence but it certainly is fed by a hatred of U.S presence. I am not sold that staying the present course is the way to go. It seems more complex than that and is pretty convoluted. Iraq borders on a strategic disaster if it deteriorates much further there.
What bothers me is that we apparently never game much thought to what was going to happen after we removed Saddam's strong hand from this mixture of religions and cultures. As we've seen over and over again in places like Bosnia, Rawanda, Kashmir and Northern Ireland religious and ethnic fighting can be brutal. From the beginning the Shia were happy with democracy in Iraq because they knew that they would control the government. At the same time the Suni have been doing all that they can to start a civil war and they are getting closer to their goal. The Kurds have their own section and are so far content with being power brokers and living without the brutal oppression of Saddam. We should have known that Democracy has to be earned not given. Until the police and armed forces in Iraq can (if ever) maintain control of the situation, we're stuck. As long as we play the peacekeeper between the warring factions, we're targets for the AlQuada thugs who have flocked to the region.
Why do we have to export our form of democracy into Iraq? Wouldn't it have been enought to conquer their army, destroy Sadam and his family and cripple their infrastructure then leave? Leave them in rubble and chaos. Who cares if they have a civil war? As long as they are busy killing one another they are a threat to no one.
Great post Gipper and I have to commend you on your honesty in giving your opinion instead of just repeating the company line. Why these things weren't thought out very well if at all is a mystery. I think these things were indeed thought out and warnings given by the proper think tanks and Middle East experts etc. but possibly their data and results were not listened to by the higher ups because it did not suit what was already a bullheaded plan set into action.
George if Iraq was the only Islamic Republic we had to deal with that might be a good strategy but as you are aware there is a big Islamic/Arab world out there. I cannot believe we have endeared ourselves to many non-Iraqis in the general Arab population by this invasion mainly because the Islamists are much better than we are ( as recently reported ) at misinformation about what goes on there. I actually question sometimes myself whether or not some of these airstrikes that kill civilians are always reported accurately in our media. Even if they are how do we prevent Al- Jazeera et. al. from reporting these incidents with their own twist and further inflaming the Muslims who distrust and downright hate us anyway.
MCG, Forget about endearing ourselves to the Muslims. The only way that would ever happen would be to divest ourselves of any presence and interest in any middle eastern countries and sell out Israel. So if we can't be friends then we can be a superior enemy. I've got nothing against invasions and destruction. It's the nation building and insistance on democracy that I think is fruitless.
MCG There were way to many variable when the war started to know how this whole action would play out. We didn't know if the Iraqi army would fight. We didn't know if we'd take out Saddam before, during, right after or sometime after the war. We didn't know of the Suni would try to participate or resist democracy from the beginnin. No one really knew. It seems to me that the plan of action decided on was "let's see what happens and then react and fix it." Wishful thinking. As to the "company line" I've never seen more group speak than the anti-Bush crowd. "He's an idiot", he knew about the 911 attack beforehand, he knew that there were no WMDs, he knew that the levees in NO would break etc. (pretty good for an idiot.) I have and do consider him to be an honorable man who respects the office of president and wants to do what is best for this country. Beleive it or not, in the last election a majority of the people in this country felt that way.
I still say the most amazing this is that you could not predict that when you freed a people from a brutal dictator that they would react like they have. Just blows my mind. It's almost like they would rather have Saddam back torturing the citizens, preventing the Shites from celebrating their holy days, killing them and buring them in mass graves, living it up with the Oil for Food money while children starved, went without medicine all so Saddam and gang could have opulent palaces, porno, private zoos, etc. I'm not someone who is worn down by our casualty rate, I'm worn down by the ingrates we've tried to help. Screw'em. Canadian Oil Sands rescources are now the #1 source of imported oil more than Saudi, and we haven't really gotten much oil from Iraq since the Gulf War in the early 90's. Back the Kurds for an independent state and arm them to the teeth they deserve it, and let those bastard Suni's and Shites kill each other in a bloody civil war. Terry
:? You can't arm the Kurds and allow them to become an independent country without bringing Turkey into the war against them and shattering NATO, which plays into the hands of the Russians... There are no simple solutions. ...........JO'Co
the answer you don't want to hear <t>if you have a weakness, your enemy will exploit it.<br/> <br/> there is always a way out, somewhere. the idea is to leave them with the choice of death, or surrender. so long as there is another option, they will continue to take it. if you are the superior force, you control the 'way out.'<br/> <br/> you don't win the fight by giving the guy advice for selecting a wife or how his wardrobe should be designed. you win the fight by beating him to the ground, and then beating him to the ground again for getting up. you continue this until the choices are clear, death or surrender. this might be considered crass, or even inhumane. but this is war, its not gosh darn stratego.<br/> <br/> my problem with this, as it appears is the case with george as well, is the fact that we are too caught up in the nation building. you have rid them of the dictator and offered all the tools and resources that they need to take the ball and run with it.<br/> <br/> we are too caught up in the mystique of the islamic mind. they are first and foremost human beings. when faced with the choice of annihilation or life, with no other viable alternative. life wins out eventually. no one is in that big of a hurry to meet a room full of virgins.<br/> <br/> imho, we have not put the 'cake or death' question to them and made it stick. we are still offering cake, a salad bar, cheese sticks or even the simple chance to just loiter in the restaurant at no charge. so long as we continue this policy, we are in trouble. it isn't nice, but since when is war about being nice?</t>
The problems in Iraq are complex in that there is a lack of unity, a lack of agreement on what direction Iraq should take. The oil reserves and control of that wealth is a hidden issue I think that drives the insurgency. Those who gain the power in Iraq will control the oil wealth and I think the minority Sunnis are unwilling to relinquish that control to the majority Shia who aren't likely to share equally anyway. The Bathists that have slid under the rocks are still a part of the oil wealth game as well I suspect. Between the secular split and the battle for oil this is and probably will remain quite a mess.
(1) Kill them all before they can breed more. (2) We have Disney land, Disney World, Euro Disney and Asian Disney... I think it's time for Desert Disney don't you? :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: Heh heh heh....... And on the 7th day when GOD rested, we over ran his perimeter, stole the globe, and have been running the show ever since.....UNITED STATES MARINE CORPS! OOOOHHHHHRRRRAAAAAHHHHHHH!!!!!!