Heisman Trophy

Discussion in 'Sports Board' started by Tailback, Nov 14, 2006.

  1. Stu Ryckman

    Stu Ryckman Well-Known Member

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    I think Henne got hurt by UM coming off of a 7-5 season last year, so no pre-season hype.

    He is an outstanding talent.

    Well, actually, he is not deserving...he just is lucky to have such good receivers. :lol:
     
  2. Terry O'Keefe

    Terry O'Keefe Well-Known Member Administrator

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    Here's some trivia, who was the last "modern era" QB to win the Heisman without having a 300yd game? Smith hasn't had one this year has he?
     
  3. Stu Ryckman

    Stu Ryckman Well-Known Member

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    297 is his best...hasn't even come close to 300. :roll:

    What?....is it some kind of badge?
     
  4. Terry O'Keefe

    Terry O'Keefe Well-Known Member Administrator

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    I think given as much grief as gipper has given Troy Smith, the poetic justice will be the Lions taking him in the draft!! :)

    I'd like to see Brady Quinn in Houston myself.
     
  5. Sid

    Sid Well-Known Member

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    I going to guess Eric Crouch who won based on a combination of running and throwing.
     
  6. gipper

    gipper Well-Known Member

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    Oh year! Well we won't know if he's that good unless he's passed over by Houston. :lol: :lol: [/img]
     
  7. Terry O'Keefe

    Terry O'Keefe Well-Known Member Administrator

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    Good guess Sid, you are right. Crouch was a somewhat controversial choice because he lacked stats, but I thought he was a heck of a football player and I really enjoyed watching him run that old Neb offense.
     
  8. BuckeyeT

    BuckeyeT Well-Known Member

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    ....let's wait....he hasn't had a chance to play the Irish or M yet this year! Troy averages almost 400 yards in total offense against those teams in his career! 8)
     
  9. AJNJ

    AJNJ New Member

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    Ok but at least he was instrumental in Nebraska winning or losing. If he doesn't have the numbers, then you have to assign value to him in anotrher way.

    My argument against Troy ( my Big 10 Bros now hate me :cry:) is that he doesn't have the numbers and the Buckeyes have an excellent team. They have a great running game and the # 1 defense in the country stat wise. Smith is not as instrumental to OSU's success as Quinn is to ND.

    Stu, Look up those passing yards, you are including the entire team. Smith is 2191 not 2390.
     
  10. Terry O'Keefe

    Terry O'Keefe Well-Known Member Administrator

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    I think we are all getting way to analytical here, if it were only about stats then we wouldn't even vote, just look at the stats. It was hard not to look at Eric Crouch and not see a great college football player stats or no stats.

    I can go back and pickup one of the more controversial selections in ND's own Paul Hornung, Paul was a great college football player and if you look at his stats show that he was a great player, he was a great hs player and he was a great professional player as well. Certainly there were other great football players that year, but Paul captured the voters imagination and got the award. Certainly didn't diminish Johnny Majors year, or John Brodie, or Jim Brown that's for sure. But Paul was a great player and a deserving winner, so would the others.

    This year I have no doubt that either Brady or Troy will be deserving winners if they finish out the year strong. Even if Troy has a bad game against Mich and Brady a great game against USC and slips past him to get the award. Troy will still have had a great year and been one of the best players in college football. The reverse would be true as well.

    Terry
     
  11. Stu Ryckman

    Stu Ryckman Well-Known Member

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    No we don't hate you...we think you are wrong...

    I think you are being very selective...looking at pure numbers when it suits you and then ignoring them when they don't...

    You are right about the yards...I was looking at the "projected" figure:

    Troy Smith Stats

    Why does an extra 595 yards matter and quarterback ratings don't?

    Why when I look at quarterback ratings do they suddenly involve "meaningless TD's and interceptions".

    And the "hooker" is your dismissal of Troy Smith's value to this team.

    He goes down...we lose this game.

    I've got no problem with people thinking Brady Quin should get the nod because they just have an opinion that he is a better player...doesn't ruffle my feathers at all and I'm not gonna argue or throw stats at them to try to prove them wrong.

    I've got no problem with people thinking that Brady Quin should get the nod because he plays for Notre Dame...hell, that's the same reason I think Troy Smith should get the nod.

    Just don't start throwing meaningless numbers to support your choice and dismissing other meaningless numbers that would argue for the other guy...don't be saying that Troy shouldn't get it because he "didn't show up" for a couple of games...it isn't true, and if you try to prove it with numbers, you could say the same thing about Brady looking at numbers alone. Don't tell me that Troy is not as necessary to his team as Brady because it isn't true.
     
  12. Skybox Moderators

    Skybox Moderators New Member Administrator

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    AJNJ,

    Your e-mail is being returned as undeliverable. You chose to have the system send you e-mails when replies to the topic "Heisman Trophy" receives replies.

    If this goes on very long, the system will lock you out of your account. Please correct your e-mail address registered with The Skybox or empty your in box. The address we have is: ajdlion@prodigy.net
     
  13. gipper

    gipper Well-Known Member

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    Here are some numbers to discuss
    COMBINED OPPONENT RECORDS (Smith): 55-63 (0.466)
    - Average Pass Defense: #75
    - Average Total Defense: #66
    - Average Scoring Defense: #69

    COMBINED OPPONENT RECORDS (Quinn): 54-48 (0.529)
    - Average Pass Defense: #63
    - Average Total Defense: #61
    - Average Scoring Defense: #60

    TOTALS AGAINST COMMON OPPONENTS
    - Brady Quinn: 45-72 (62.5%), 606 yards, 8 TDs, 1 INT
    - Troy Smith: 27-44 (61.4%), 349 yards, 3 TDs, 2 INTs
     
  14. Stu Ryckman

    Stu Ryckman Well-Known Member

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    Wow, those are impressive. :roll:
     
  15. Terry O'Keefe

    Terry O'Keefe Well-Known Member Administrator

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    You have to admit though that Brady is a combination of Jack Armstrong and Chip Hilton, that alone makes him more qualified. Also, Brady will graduate in Dec (3 1/2 yrs), with a dual major in Political Science and Fianance....and he's from OHIO!! :)
     
  16. BuckeyeT

    BuckeyeT Well-Known Member

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    ...better yet, he's from Columbus!

    Brady is a more than worthy Heisman candidate....I would be disappointed but I would have no problem with Brady taking home the trophy....but I think he has an uphill battle.

    Troy has an awful lot of "you-tube" - "ESPN top ten play"= video moments that will garner alot of votes and justifiably so....there are not a whole lot of football players that can make the plays he does......anyway, as I recall, they already had this battle. Were they not both on the same field recently and if I remember correctly, the games best player wore #10 and was a Buckeye! :wink: :wink:
     
  17. gipper

    gipper Well-Known Member

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    Who better than AJ Hawk to make the selection of the better QB. Dan Patrick asked him that yesterday on his radio program. I think his answer was influenced by the fact that he might not get any for a while if he said Smith.
     
  18. AJNJ

    AJNJ New Member

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    Let's hammer a nail into this once and for all. 1st of all there is no right or wrong. We are just echoing our own sentiments and our own choices.

    What does the Heisman stand for, best player? Define best player. You can have 20 people each give a different interpretation of what constitutes the best player. This is no different than some of the IRS regs.

    The award was named after a non descript college player who gained more notoriety after he graduated than when he played. Heisman was NEVER the best player, didn't even come close, yet we have this award which was never properly defined. Some years the Heisman winner had the best numbers, other years the Heisman had unimpressive numbers yet the voters used a most valuable player criteria in awarding such players. We also had years when the best player was not only best player in college but also the best player in the eyes of the NFL, like Bush last year.
    We also have to judge based on the position the player plays. QB's and RB's usually win the awards. Linemen almost never win yet players like Orlando Pace should have received heavy consideration. Rarely do we see a defensive player, yet Wooden won and I had no problems with that because in my eyes he was awesome, shutting down half the field and an integral part of UM success. Maybe Hugh Green won the award?

    Is competition also a criteria? Is this why we rarely ever see a AA player get any consideration? If my memory serves me correct that last AA player to crack the top 3 was a wr Gordy Lockbaum from Holy Cross. Jerry Rice had huge #'s playing for a AA school and he's the best wr ever to play the game in the NFL. Did he even get any votes? We rarely see a non BCS player get the award or even get considered. Detmer,Ware, many years ago.

    I threw my pick Colt Brennan into the ring because I think it's an interesting conversation and because he is a kid who will never get his due because of who he plays for. I almost couldn't wait for someone to mention Ware & Detmer, so I could show just how awesome a season he is having. He's on course to having the greatest season EVER by a college QB yet no one even mentions his name. He is off the charts and on pace to breaking Shaun King’s efficiency rating. Some say he's a product of a system, but do they really understand how efficient he is?
    If you are operating a Run & Gun a system to perfection, you are going to throw the ball less not more!! Compare Brennan who averages 37

    passes a game to that of Ware, Detmer or any T Tick QB who chucks it 60 times a game. 37 passes a game. That's a little more than 1 extra pass than Quinn throws!! That kid has the #'s and that kid has the goods.

    Getting back to Ohio State, we're going to have to agree to disagree.
    Back in 1994, CU's Salaam won the Heisman based on his 2,000 rushing yards. Penn State had arguably the best offense that year averaging close to 48-49 points a game and equally running the ball as well as passing the ball. Neither QB Collins nor RB Carter won the Heisman. Both were equally instrumental to PSU's success. Carter in fact had a better year running as he averaged close to 7-8 yards a carry while Salaam was near 5 yards a clip. Carter had maybe 400 fewer yards. I think 1,600. Salaam won because of his overall yardage, his greater influence on CU's offensive performance and the split votes between Collins & Carter.

    So to end my long winded and never ending post. ( May God bless you if you read every sentence) :lol:
    Both count, but at least come within 50% of the top QB. Brennan still has 3 games to play. At his rate he will double Smiths yardage. That's just my criteria, no rhyme or reason other than it just looks bad.
    Because it exists. The same applies to all QB's. Look at the games closely and I'm sure you could toss out a few TD's and a few INT's for lack of meaning. I haven't looked closely at Quinn or Colt either, so maybe there is no significance.
    I hired no such male Hooker!! I swear he didn't go down on me ! :lol:
    Seriously, rate your team. What wins most of your games defense or offense? How many games could you have won with a backup QB and the same outstanding defense?

    Everyone has their own opinion. There's no right or wrong. We just make a different case for what we believe in. Keep in mind the Heisman has no concrete rules.
    I shouldn't have said "Not worthy", and I apologize as my choice of words really sucked. I think Troy Smith is an outstanding player and if the Buckeyes beat UM, it will be because of Troy Smith. I just don't think he's the best Heisman candidate.

    Now if you could forgive me for my slight deviation from the Big 10 brotherhood, then I'll go back to reading my Rutgers fairy tale. I'm stuck on chapter 9 and I got 4 more chapters to go. I'm dying to read the ending but I just can't, not yet. Don't worry when the Bowl season comes along, I will proudly toot the Big 10 horn and call out to my brothers as I do every year.


    [​IMG]
     
  19. Tim Gentry

    Tim Gentry Well-Known Member

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    Heisman

    <r>My top 3<br/>
    <br/>
    1. B. Quinn<br/>
    <br/>
    2. B. Quinn<br/>
    <br/>
    3. B. Quinn<br/>
    <br/>
    End of discussion.<br/>
    <br/>
    I might possibly have a slight ND slant to my picks....maybe <E>:D</E></r>
     
  20. Stu Ryckman

    Stu Ryckman Well-Known Member

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    Ahem...

    Aw, never mind.