I don't have a problem with Troy Smith, he's had a great year. I don't think he's as good a QB as Brady Quinn, but then I'm a little biased.
Terry, The argument that most would have is that Colt is a product of the system, but most fans never even see Colt play. I'm sure J"OCO has and could add some comments to this. I'm positive Timmy was in the NFL, Thought I saw him in an exhibition game. Anyhow, the story on Colt is this. He was a backup to Matt Leinhart at Mater Dei, started his senior year and had a decent year. He was a 1 star recruit who went to Colorado, got into trouble with that sex scandel and later transferred to a JC in California. He had a tremendous year there and was then rated 4 stars. The kid has a strong arm much stronger than Leinhart or Timmy Chang and has excellent mobility much better than either of the 2. Chang had great numbers, but Colt's are far better than anything Chang ever put up and he has much better athletic ability. He's not just an average QB who was made by a system , but a kid who has the arm and mobility to be a great one. Colt does not have the luxury of throwing to 2 6'5" wr's where the margin for error is diminished and when Colt gets a pass rush in his face, he has the ability to avoid pressure. 73 % completion and the passes are not all 5 yard dinks is truly outstanding even if you don't respect the competition. This guy should be considered but because he plays for Hawaii and because he was not a pre season candidate, he doesn't stand a chance. In the meantime, ( Big 10 bros please forgive me) a QB like Smith who has no #'s worthy of a Heisman is a leading candidate based upon popularity and pre season hype. I I listed those rb's only because their numbers are at least as good as Mc Fadden's if not better. How does one vote for McFadden and ignore those 3 ? I think Colt, Quinn and the rb's listed are the real Heisman candidates.
Sorry if you get angry Stu. I'm not trying to anger you or anyone, it's just my humble opinion. 2 and it's against the only 2 decent defensive teams OSU played. Penn State 12/22 115 yards 1 TD 2 Ints Illinois 13/23 108 yards 0 TD 1 Int The best player should have the best numbers. 2100 yards is too few for a Heisman, maybe if he throws for 400 against UM, I'll revise my estimates :lol: There are many talented players in college football, Troy is not the only one. Many do not have such a great supporting cast as Troy Smith. Troy Smith does not win games on his shoulders alone and the Buckeyes are not a QB oriented team. If I were to make a case for Quinn , I would point out that their success rides on Quinn's shoulders. ND has neither the running game nor the defense to win games if the QB does not show up. In those 2 games listed above Smith did not show up , yet Ohio State won those games. He was neither the most valuable player, nor the best player during those games. In fact, the team had to overcome his lackluster play to win. Don't get mad , just get even. :twisted:
Stu, I have not seen many of those 11-20 100 yard games either....hell he's completing almost 70% of his passes and is 5th or 6th nationally in passing efficiency and as everybody knows can beat you with his legs as well. Smith's numbers this year are breathtaking, imho. It is almost a certainty that he will leave Ohio State with the highest career QB efficiency rating in the history of the Big 10.....and there have been a whole bunch of NFL QB's that have come from the Big 10. 'Nuff said about numbers, imo. I love Brady Quinn and I think he will likely be drafted ahead of Troy Smith. That said, I do not believe that Brady can do the things that Troy can do. I don't believe he would be any more productive than Troy in our offense. Troy Smith is absolutely a D-coord. nightmare and I believe with every fiber of my being that there is no greater dread than a D-coord trying to scheme to contain Smith. However, I don't believe that Troy would be any more productive than Brady in the Irish offense.....it's designed to benefit from the gifts that Quinn has and they are many. I believe our offense is more versatile and is not designed around Troy. Bottom line fellas, I just don't see anybody playing better football consistently at a high level than Troy Smith. that strikes the same fear in the heart of the opposition...you guys have short memories! Bias???? You bet your A$$! 8)
Of course you are biased, but you also have a strong case. ND is QB oriented, OSU is not. Troy had 2 bad games yet the Buckeyes still won. If Brady doesn't show up, what happens? you lose !!! Brady -1 Troy -2 Brady #'s much better
I'll take your word on Colt Brennan, I have never even seen him play. But you are right it's very difficult to get much attention when you play at Hawaii. Now if he played at BYU, that would be a different story, you can play at a non-BCS conference school and get a lot of attention. But Hawaii...tough. If he's as good as you say he is, his reward is comming$$$$ in the NFL. Who do you favor in the newly named Randy Moss Award for the best Return man in College football .....I had to laugh when I found out that he had an award named after him. ugh...
. One more tidit. Bama has the 24th best pass defense in the country. Hawaii lost to them 16-25 @ Bama early. Bama's pass D not counting that game gives up 155 yards a game. Colt threw for 350 yards against them. BYU, man Beck is having a great year and getting no love with the Heisman. How did you manage to duck em? :lol: Just kidding, BYU is having a great year. New coach new results. It's about time. Isn't there a thug at Miami in the running ? :roll: Hey, Hawaii ( you must be sick of them by now :lol: ) has a kid ( Dickerson)who is pretty good. I guess Jones from OK St is the leader. Thigpen from Indiana is pretty good too. He's had a lot of practice. :lol:
Wow! Colt Brennan could be the second coming of Andre Ware....or David Klinger who also put up big numbers against lower teams in a flag football offense. They're both going to Canton....driving the bus.
AJ, point taken re: PSU and Illinois games. In fairness, we should mention that conditions for both games were less than ideal for throwing the football! In any event, your post prompted me to take a look at Brady -v- Troy while playing common opponents both over their entire careers and also post- Weis. I think many would be surprised at the result. Post Charlie - against common opponents(M, MSU and PSU) , Troy's Passing Efficiency rating is superior 165.1 to 151.9 for Quinn. Troy completed a higher percentage of his throws, more yardage per attempt and more yardage per completion and of course his running ability gives him a dimension/threat that Brady just doesn't have....witness the TD pass -v- your Nits, his destruction of M in 04 and his countless 3rd and long pick-ups -v- the Irish in the Fiesta. I think Troy's numbers speak for themselves.....that said, Brady is a more than worthy Heisman candidate and without Troy in the hunt I would be rooting hard for him.....I love the kid. Hell, he's from my hometown! 8)
Oh, piffle... Notre Dame has won two games where Brady's rating was below what Troy Smith's in either of the games you say he "didn't show up". Brady Quinn has had 3 games with a rating below 100...Troy Smith has had two. Brady Quinn has had no games with a rating over 200...Troy Smith has had four. Brady Quinn has had two games with a rating less than 80...Troy Smith has none. Overall rating...Troy Smith 168.69...Brady Quinn 154.50 Troy Smith has thrown for 2390...I'm not sure what you're "requirement" is but Brady Quinn has obviously passed it with his total of 2786. Unbelievable. You and I can selectively quote stats all we want...I don't object to anyone saying that Brady Quinn should get the Heisman trophy... But the fact that you don't think Troy Smith has "Heisman numbers" shows me that you have absolutely no idea of how good he is or how much he means to this team. And no, I'm not angry...just shakin' my head... :roll:
Short memory Gip ? How about Barry Sanders running for 1300 yards or better every year the Lions ran the Run & Shoot? How about Warren Moon and the Oilers. Mike Rozier, Lorenzo White, and Gary Brown rushing for over 1000 yards. In Atlanta Craig Ironhead and Pegramm rushing for over 1000 yards. The NCAA record for rushing average is some kid at Houston who averaged 10 yards a rush. The Run & Shoot is the most prolific offense EVER in college or pro. The reason it didn't last is not because the offense stunk or was easy to defend but because of clock issues it presented for the defense. Do you remember Buddy Ryan punching out the O coordinator over it? Who forgets the Oiler playoff collapse against Buffalo leading 35-3? To this very day, while not the staple offense , it is used almost by every team in the pros under certain circumstances. How many times do you see Peyton Manning operating a 4 wr set 1 back backfield? No complaints about his #'s huh? Even Charlie Weis uses it on occassion and I'm sure you wouldn't tell me he's a lousy coach. With the right QB and a good offensive line, it is almost indefensible. The downside is that because they score so quickly or get off the field so quickly, you need lots of bodies on defense. It's actually a good offense at developing QB's because to make it work, a QB has to have the ability to read and go through his progressions. BYU & Marshall sent plenty of QB's to the pros because of this.
Barry Sanders ran for over 2000 yds without the run and shoot. The point I was making was that Andre Ware threw for giant numbers in College having his receivers run fly routes on every play. Trouble with the Heisman winner with great numbers was he couldn't throw a 5 yd. swing pass. My memory is fine.
Actually Andre Ware did not throw many long balls in college, but he had those smurf type recievers who were short and fast, when they got a 10 yd crossing pattern or a jailbreak screen they put a lot of YAK on it. I doubt if Andre really had all that strong of an arm.
I think Troy Smith is an outstanding QB , but I will also argue that he has a much better supporting cast than Brady. QB ratings can be skewed because of the weight given to TD's and Ints. You don't have to throw TD's to be a great QB, and there are meaningless and bad INTs. Every QB is valuable to their team, but take Smith away and take Quinn away and ask yourself, which team has the better chance to win. There's no question Quinn is more valuable to his team. He moves their offense, they score points, and they win with a pedestrian defense.
So that makes him not worthy of a Heisman??? A crappy NFL career is further validation? So what does that say for all the Heisman winners who were QB's and FAILED in the NFL ?
What I'm telling you is that great numbers don't mean that they guy is an outstanding college QB. He could be an above average QB playing against below average defenses or playing in offenses where passing numbers comprise the entire offense. It says that the voters were wowed by numbers or gave the QB much too much credit for a teams success a la Gino Toretta or Charlie Ward.
I'm a Quinn guy. I think he is a great Heisman candidate but I don't penalize him because his passing numbers constitutes 71 % of Notre Dame's offense. I don't penalize him because of the 10-11 games they played only 2 or 3 that have a real defense. Nor do I think it is fair to penalize a running back just because he plays in an offense that runs the spread option. I refuse to believe that an average player can put up great numbers, because if that were the case, every team would run a specialty offense. Why worry about recruiting a great player when your system will make them great? If a kid produces great numbers, give him his due. Brennan has better #'s than Chang. He rarely throws a pick and averages more per attempt. If you look at his #'s you would see that it's much better than Chang ever produced. Chang was never # 1 in efficiency.
At this point I give the nod to Quinn because he has put up equal or better numbers in one less game played and done it under some considerable duress. He also has led ND back in miraculous comebacks twice and I don't think Smith has had that opportunity. I also think that Smith is part of a juggernaut which makes his job easier. Also, ND's schedule strength to date is 22nd while the Buckeye's is 49th. This is not a slight on Smith who has played superbly. I just think that, all things considered, Quinn has played better.
Update! Brady Quinn Loses One Heisman Vote By Brian Stouffer For those of you haven't read Mark Kiszla's Denver Post article about Brady Quinn's Heisman campaign (which I highlighted in my last post), you missed out on a great line by Chinedum Ndukwe, Quinn's roommate. omebody asked Irish senior safety Chinedum Ndukwe if he would campaign for the Heisman on behalf of his bunkmate. "That's dangerous waters," Ndukwe replied. "I'm not a voter. I'm just his roommate, and right now he left his clothes all over the house. So I'm not voting for him today."