Nowhere - outside of Detroit and amongst seniors - is the bailout supported by a majority American citizens.....not in the Midwest, not among Dems. Those in the Northeast and those under age 45 are more opposed than those in the South.....I think its fair to say that the US citizens have already voted with their wallets and are telling their elected representatives same.....it seems to me as if the opposition is widespread and goes well beyond any political and regional bias.
Interesting stats. Makes you wonder just what does the average American truly understand about the economy. I agree with Gipper that these few Southern Republicans and many other Republicans almost had a vendetta going against the Dem promoting UAW but I also agree that there are many Americans out there stuck in the 70s who don't really have a grasp on just where the US automakers are today in terms of union concessions won and high mileage vehicles produced and those Americans have expressed their distaste for a bailout....right or wrong. My bet is also that these are the same cretins in many cases that just couldn't wait to get their hands on a GMC Sierra, a Chevy Tahoe, etc. back before gas prices went through the roof.
And just what were the poll figures as to the bailout of AIG and Wall St. So let's recap, if you live in Mich. who gives a **** about what the citizens care about other bailouts your taxes have to bail out the East Coast high rollers, but the auto bailout if different because... :?:
I can't speak for others, but after much thought and soul searching, I believe we must do something. Call it what you will....bailout, loan, quasi-takeover, restructuring, bankruptcy.....but my analysis indicates a complete paralysis of many communities across the country if the Not-so-big Three is allowed to fail. The resulting surge in unemployment would lead directly to significant property value losses (aside from the existing mortgage crisis) and less property tax revenues for governing units.....without question a severe drop in sales and income tax revenues to government.......hence a sweeping forced reduction in services, incuding police and fire protection. See where this is going? I respect the laborers who build the cars and who work for the parts suppliers and the auto dealers. I also believe that the unions have gotten too much over the years to the point where they are part of the problem. Regardless, I don't paint individual workers with the broad brush of union stubbornness. They are family men and women who are contributing members of society. They don't deserve to have the rest of the country turn their backs on them. The people at the top responsible for the problem clearly must go, but they are the bathwater. The rest of the population, including the auto-related workforce, is the baby. Are you going to throw both out? This is where I part ways with the intransigent conservative attitude of Let 'em fail. That attitude is shortsighted and arrogant. It says, We have ours and to hell with the rest. I hope that somewhere along the way cooler heads prevail. I don't know where the insight and reasoned thinking is going to come from, but It won't be from the Pelosis and Reids on the left or from the Shelbys and his allies on the right. all I can say is Lord help us find a way.
Dave, Sorry about your news. I was a lifelong Michigander and laterally transferred last September to Wisconsin for lesser pay because of the likelihood of being laid off. I guess I was one of the early participants of the ever increasing Michigan Diaspora. Not having met you, I do not know your abilities as a salesmen but, given your persuasive abilities as a writer, my guess is that you are really good at your job and that you wil land on your feet and do well in the future. I hope this does not come off a trite because I am serious in my respect for the tenacity and rhetorical skills you exhibit here in a daily basis. When I describe to people here just how bad things are in Michigan, the general response I recieve is indifference and looks that tells me it is time to shut up because I am boring them to death. Unless one actually sees the conditions firsthand, one, by reading a newspaper or watching TV, really cannot appreciate just how quickly and profoundly the Michigan economy is imploding and the fear people have over what their future will be. Try to stay postive. If you end up back in Florida, you will be living in a state that has quality college football teams and winter weather fit for human habitation. (We are getting ready for a 14"" blizzard and my snowblower in in the shop for repairs.)
For the record.. My thoughts very much echo Sid's. At this point in time, what's another terrible bailout? We're getting fleeced by Wall St. and Washington, why not Detroit too? I see people reaching for compromise while the Union asks for more...and you turn a blind eye to it... It was they who killed the last bailout and no one else. They won't compromise, they won't budge, they won't even hear what you have to say... Come see them in 2 years when their contracts are up for negotiation... That is actually their position as stated on the news last night. This thing has been broken for a long time. The whole damned process has and we continue to just put it off, throw more money at it and hope it will get better. That being said... looking at the other bailouts and the cash grab giveaways going on there... why not the Big3? Goldman Sachs is using bailout money for Christmas bonuses, the least we can do is throw more money at the auto industry.. What is one more crappy bailout? I would like to point out, to some, that by blindly backing their union at this point in time.. They are CLEARLY backing party over country... Not that anyone cares, or is listening. Just cut another check.
Sid, the current auto leaders are really the custodians of companies whose fates were written many yrs. ago. Alan Mulally is the president of Ford. He was previously the senior VP of Boeing. He's been with Ford for 2 yrs. Believe me, there's nothing that he could have done the past 2 yrs. to solve the problems and in fact, he's undertaken a tact of selling assets and accumulating cash so that Ford is the least threatened of the "Big" 3. Bob Nardelli the head of Chrysler has been on the job since 8/07, he was previously with Home Depot. His salary has been $1 since he started although there's probably many other income opportunities. Now Rick Wagner, he's one to throw out. He was the chief financial officer then the head of NA Operations. He's been steering the ship toward icebergs since 2000. As to Ford and Chrysler, the screw-ups have enjoyed their golden parachutes and are living in Palm Beach or LaJolla. Throwing out the guys today left holding the bag would be unfair.
Excellent posts all. It seems as if cooler heads at least prevail on this board. Thanks Bobda.....I really appreciate the compliments and the ego boost. I need all the encouragement I can get right about now. The real hang-up right now other than no job is the lower than low home prices. Even if I found a job opportunity in Florida the source of my down payment on a home there is almost non-existent at the moment....the equity in my Michigan home of 16 years. Bobda did well to get out while he could. Now the prospects of staying here aren't too good and the ability to leave is compromised as well. In short......I'm screwed.
Dave, We put our house on the market in September and sold it this July. Anne stayed in Michigan until the house sold while I rented in Milwaukee. Not a fun time. Until two years ago, houses in our neighborhood rarely stayed on the market more than a month or two. But, it looks like mortgage rates are going to drop down to the 4.5% range which might mean that the housing market in great neighborhoods like yours might pick up. The Feds have basically printed up a trillion dollars and thrown it into circulation. At some point, the feds decision to flood the credit markets with cash, as shown by banks now willing to loan at Eisenhower area rate levels, is going to get the economy moving again. I just hope it is sooner than later so that you have the opportunity to continue to live and work in Michigan or, if you choose to relocate, to be able to sell you home based on a fair rather than predatory offer. I suspect there will be long term consequences to having the government printing press run non stop and having no budgetary restrait but that can be a SB topic for another day. :wink:
Gip, Thanks for that eye opener re: the current heads of Ford and Chrysler. I see what you are saying. Maybe the current guys can help get it turned around. Looks like the head of GM is the only one bearing years-long responsibility for the mess. Excellent posts, Bobda. I admire your willingness to lay open your life as a way to illustrate the depth of what's happening. Dave's current situation brings it home right before our eyes.
My son in Raleigh got caught in this earlier. He's an engineer and been out of work for about 6 months now. I got caught in 93 and took an early retirement under similar circumstances to what Tom is talking about with his friends now, an early retirement with some extra bennies as opposed to sitting it out and perhaps losing my job without the bennies. After a number of months I decided to turn to teaching math and about months after retiring started at UCF taking some math and education courses in the summer. During that time I was lucky and attended a Job Fair for adjuncts and met the right person. In Sept 94 I started teaching math at the Community College as an adjunct and continued at UCF to get the graduate level math credits I needed to qualify to teach all the courses. In Sept 96 I got a full time, but temporary, position and after the summer of 97 started just teaching the Spring and Fall semesters and summering in North Carolina where we retired to in May 07. In the 13 years I taught I never once earned half in actual dollars, unadjusted for inflation, that I had earned my last full year at my old job. But I loved it. I am convinced it prolonged my life. I am telling this for a couple of reasons, first as a result of my experience my son is trying to head in the direction of teaching either math or science, and secondly, as bad as it all seemed when it happened I am a happier, but poorer, person. Make that much happier. There is always a silver lining and Dave just work your way though this and who knows you may end up in a better life situation. As a side note I am starting at the local community college as a tutor and teaching one course, if it makes, in January. I've missed the interaction with students and am looking forward to getting involved on a more limited basis again. I hope this was not inappropriate for this topic. If so I can delete. Hang in there Dave, Corey, Bobda and anyone else who is facing tough times right now. God Bless.
Very appropriate Bill as I too am facing the prospect of never making a close percentage to what I was making. That is one of the hurtful facts that I wake up to every day now and it will take some getting used to. My lifestyle and longevity would probably benefit in the long run from simplification and retraction so the choice to go that route has been made for me and I need to accept and maybe one day embrace it. Good luck to your son also Bill. Bobda my wife and I have discussed the same scenario you describe with regard to our housing situation and will most likely handle it in the same way should I be able to find work out of state. With the news of a bailout this morning my home selling prospects just became a tad brighter....in the short term anyway.
Thanks, Bill, for your story of both you and your son. Dave, I read into your words a degree of toughness and clear thinking in the face of adversity that will help you weather this crisis in your life. Who'd a thunk that a simple sports bulletin board would someday come to a discussion this deep and meaningful about what's really important in life? I'm a better person today for having read Bobda's, Bill's, and Dave's posts in this topic.
Sid, on more than one occasion I have felt I have become a better person because of the people on this board, including one named Sid. But thanks and I think our little forum here did migrate to a few people who for the most part genuinely like each other. We've lost a couple that might have some meaningful input into this type situation but someday maybe we get a couple of them back.