8) :lol: Quite frankly and bluntly.....Tebow is an NFL superstar playing with a handicap......its not his shoulder...its the entire Gator team. Forget the clear signals about UF's defense caving in en-masse.....UF's runners and receivers are nothing more than midlevel while the O-line still hods a "C" grade in opening holes or protecting Tebow. Now that Tebow can't run with a minus-15 rushing stat vs Dawgs, with losing 7 starters from last season, Tebow took some hard knocks in an amazing six sacks. Whats the best win for UF this season so far?.......vs Tenn which was unranked as of yesterday. UF has three losses, out of any picture even at the SEC level, unless everybody else collapses, which can happen Coach Mark Richt, A FORMER HURRICANE QUARTERBACK, taunted the Gators with the entire team celebrating after Dawgs' first and easy score......a classic chess move, Brilliant !!! Knowshon Moreno, redshirted Dawg's RB, who turned down Gators to go to UGA, ran rampant over UF's D........42 points given up this week, 37 last week.......188 yds by Moreno......415 last week.......247 yds rusing allowed versus Louisiana State.....stats don't lie. This was a statement game, just like the Canes going up to Tally vs FSU.....the winner gains momentum....the loser collapses in pain. Great Game Dawgs !!!!!......I LOVED IT
The ... <t>Great thing about college football is emotion. The dawgs were not going to lose that game yesterday. Anyone have any idea how good Moreno is there? The kid is one of the best backs in the country and his motor NEVER stops. Terrific player and I sure like thoser two freshmen O-Linemen Goergia has that can play. Speaking of O-Linemen # 77 the left tackle for Florida took the entire game off yesterday. He reminded me of a group of linemen that suit up in Indiana each Saturday this year. The Gator message boards should be all over this guy after yesterday.<br/> Georgia QB can play a bit as well.<br/> I enjoyed watching that matchup on TV #2 and the Oregon/SC game on TV #1. Wow what a game that was as well. I wonder if the Ducks can play defense like that week to week as they have come a long way since Houston ran up and down the field on them in their opener. Duck crowd was amazing and I look for them to upend ASU this coming Saturday.</t>
Knowshon Moreno played for Middletown South HS here at the Jersey shore. He was a four year varsity starter. He pretty much re-wrote the record book for NJ in the all-time rushing categories. He averaged over 200 ypg rushing and had a few over 300. He is also a very good receiver. Barring injury, he will definitely play Sundays... and play well. His mom is a receptionist at one of my customers.
Interesting topic......the biggest Heisman screw jobs. Manning is right up there. How about Spurrier over Griese? Clearly one of the biggest screwings in Heisman history. There certainly have been others. For example, whoever got the Heisman in the two years Ron Powlus was supposed to win it. Right, Gip? :lol:
Let's say that you applied that rationale to every Heisman winner........Take a new vote 10 years later. I would bet that at least half of the winners would have their trophies taken away for reasons completely unrelated to the original basis for the award. The Heisman history is filled with winners who did not make it as pros, but that does not mean that they didn't deserve it. It's a very subjective topic for the voters and the fans both at the time of the award and definitely in hindsight. P.S. I'm one who feels in hindsight that Manning got screwed, but at the time I could have cared less. My feelings today are influenced solely by what he has accomplished as a pro playing in and for the city of Indianapolis and the state of Indiana.
Charles Woodsen led his team to a National Championship, how many did Manning have? Woodsen was NFL Defensive Rookie of the year in the NFL and was named to 3 Pro Bowls. Now how many great seasons did Andre Ware, have, Geno Toretta, Charlie Ward, and Danny Wuerffel also? John Elway and Steve Young didn't win the Heisman, won SBs and somehow managed to whine so much less.
What they have done or may do in the NFL is nothing but hindsight or conjecture. Should have nothing to do with the discussion.
That's exactly what I'm trying to say, Gip and George. Woodson deserved the Heisman. No question. He was "relatively unknown" only to Tennessee fans and fans of any other school with a Heisman candidate that year. Being in Indiana, my feelings for Manning have become so strong since he's been a pro that in hindsight I can say he got screwed only because he's had a more illustrious pro career than Woodson. How about Paul Hornung over Johnny Majors? Hornung was awarded the Heisman, but he was on a team that finished with a 2-8 record. Using the Manning vs. Woodson rationale, Hornung clearly had a better pro career, so can you justify in hindsight that he definitely deserved the award over Majors? Don't tell that to the TN fans. If you are going to be consistent with the "hindsight reasoning" you have to say that the right guy (Hornung) got the award that year (1956?). We could go on and on about fans' favorites that got "screwed". It is and always will be a never-ending argument based on fan loyalties. What about the most recent Heisman? I feel that Quinn definitely deserved the award, but I come up short of saying he got screwed because the OSU QB also deserved it and his team did better than ND. That's life. Quinn certainly has the potential to have a better pro career than the other guy, but even if he does that does not affect what happened in 2006.
I am uncertain how I feel about the requirement that a Heisman winner's team must be as good as he is. One player doesn't do it by himself....good or bad. Tebow on Saturday did not play the lousy defense shown by the Gators and otherwise he had a very courageous perormance as the Qb. He didn't fumble the ball away as Moore did on crucial drives and he didn't call the bonehead end around on 4th and 2. By contrast the now supposed frontrunner Ryan needed his team to recover the onsides kick for him to even have a chance at redeeming the most miserable perfrmance by a Hesman contender I have ever witnessed for all but two minutes of the game. He also needed his defense to hold VT to only 10 points in Blacksburg. Not a likely or easy accomplishment in itself. That Ryan suddenly vaults ahead of Tebw does not makes sense when the award is supposed to be about the best individual season performance in college football. The best team award will be awarded in New Orleans on Jan. 8th.
Sid, My claim that Woodson was a relatively unknown has merit. Go back to the heisman watch all year long. He was not mentioned until the last quarter of the season when he was put into wide receiver position as well as DB. A southern QB had won the heisman the previous year and all the talking heads were looking for a reason to not give it to another southern QB. Woodson was a great football player. Take him off of that Michigan team and his team still would have been successful. Take Manning off of that Tennessee team and the results would have been much worse. You might mention that Tennessee won the NC the first year that Manning was gone. That is true. However, Tennessee won that NC with DEFENSE. Tee Martin was no Manning. He was different because he was more mobile. Without the lifted play of the defense, Tennessee would have faded into the sunset losing to Arkansas late in the season.
Tom, I was at the 1997 UT-UF game where when driving late in the second qtr Manning threw a long pick six to a UF Db. That turned the game and his Heisman candidacy I think. That was a huge play in a huge game and Manning was beaten yet again by his nemesis Florida who was starting a new Qb in sophomore Doug Johnson who outplayed Manning that day. It was much like his NFL playoff shortcomings that held him back until he corrected it last season in big time fashion with great playoff performances enroute to the Super Bowl. You can get riled about that comment if you must but in reality Manning had several years in the NFL of coming up personally short in his quest for the Super Bowl ring until last year.
I repeat......... Beyond that, any rationalizing comments by TN or FL fans or any other fans is just white noise as far as I'm concerned. That's the end of the conversation for me.
Hey guys, I don't know how this topic got started within a UGA/UF post but I have to throw my 2 cents in here. Tom, I agree that Peyton Manning should have won the Heisman. I don't really understand how anyone in their right mind could not think he should have won it but that's a moot point. I do tend to disagree with you a bit on the '98 team that won the NC however. You're right, Tee Martin was no Manning. Honestly, I am very thankful that he wasn't. Martin is probably the most underappreciated NC winning QB in college football history. Some people even forget that it was he, and not Manning, that won that '98 championship. I think Manning was an excellent college QB and an even better pro. As far as what he did for the Tennessee program, his status as an alumni reaches far beyond anything he ever did on the field. He's a great selling point for UT football. He also played a large role in taking UT football to the elite level it reached in the mid to late 90s. He's a humanitarian and a class act and he even proved last year that he really CAN win the big ones. To me, this is where his contributions to Tennessee football end. Yes, that is a lot to contribute but you give me that '98 team with Tee Martin at QB any day of the week. The whole team stepped up under a good leader and a guy who could adequately manage the game as well as occasionally get away from pressure and make plays with his feet. Speaking of feet, I have never seen someone get happier feet than Peyton Manning when he was staring down that Gator pass rush and I still have to laugh to this day when I watch him under pressure and see those toes start bouncing up and down. I like Peyton Manning and he has a lot to do with my love for UT football. However, I do not worship him as the be-all end-all of UT football like most Tennessee fans. Tee Martin did, in one season at the helm, more than Manning did in nearly four years under center. I'm not saying he was a better QB but I think he's hard to beat as a leader and as a college QB in general. He was the perfect fit in the perfect season.
Aquila, It sounds like Tee Martin was to UT football and your '98 NC what Tony Rice was to ND and its '88 NC. You will never see Rice on the list of the greatest ND QBs, but he led the '88 team in a way no one else could have. To ND fans his name is synonymous with greatness in a way that is completely different from the names of Montana, Huarte (who by the way was a one-year Heisman wonder), Hanratty, etc. He also never panned out as a pro. He has a special place in my heart and the hearts of the ND faithful who remember that magical year.
That's just it, Sid. I can see that but I don't think the majority of UT fans do see that. Was Tee Martin spectacular? No, he wasn't. Could Tennessee have won the NC that year with Manning at QB? No, I personally don't think they could have. The '98 season featured a host of good Tenn. RBs and I think they would have been underutilized with Manning at the helm. With Martin you had a guy who played within his limits. He had a rocket arm and could throw a great deep ball and also once completed more passes consecutively than anyone in NCAA history (although I think his record was recently broken, I'm not sure?). He could also scramble away from pressure on a consistent basis which is something Manning still doesn't do well. As far as my favorite all time Tennessee players, Manning falls somewhere between 5 and 10. Most Tenn. fans don't feel this way but there are a lot of other guys I would rather see in a UT uniform again than Manning. That sounds crazy, even to me, but I just can't get the blow-out losses to Florida out of my head. It's not even so much that they lost, it's how Manning played against the Gators. He was scared. Fulmer was scared. The fans were scared. It was terrible. When UF beat UT 59-20 this season, it really sucked but I still think the 62-37 beatdown during the 1996 season was a worse loss. I think Tennessee fans just forget how bad Manning often looked against the biggest rival on the schedule at the time, and what was the biggest game in college football during those years.
Gipper wrote: I think I mentioned that by saying: Aquila, Tee had his moments. I met the man at practice on the Wednesday after the Arkansas game. He simply did not have the ability to read defenses like Peyton could. When the game was on the line against Arkansas, he could not develop a drive to win the game... that is until the defense (with help from the Arkansas QB) took the ball back with less than a minute on the clock as I recall. We rode the backs of the running backs on those last few seconds to score and remain undefeated. Tennessee has a history of relying too heavily on the abilities of one player. When Manning left, the whole team quit relying on his arm to move the ball. The backs stepped up, the defense stepped up. No, Tee Martin was no Manning. An excellent player with an even better attitude I would say… but no Manning.
Just my two cents as well......Woodson was the best football player I saw that year and probably the year before as well. He was defensive player of the year as a Soph and Jr when he led his team to the national title. He won games on defense, as a receiver and returning punts. Would they have been a good team without him.....sure. Would they have won a national title without him.....no chance. I know for certain one game they would have lost!!!!! Against us, in the last game of his college career, with a shot at a national title on the line against their archrival Woodson returned a punt for a touchdown, intercepted a pass in the endzone and a brilliant catch and run to set up another touchdown.....living in Nashville at the time I loved Peyton's game, but Woodson was something special .and believe me, him being an Ohio kid who took a wrong turn north, he sure was not one of my favorite players!