They did have that whole rape thing not to long ago. Even though The big 3 in Florida have some thuggish players...its not like they are the only 3. You would be kidding yourselves if you thought the likes of Notre Dame, Texas, Michigan didn't have those types of kids. When Texas has that Taylor kid busted for drugs....it barely hits the news. You and I both know that if it was a Florida kid...they would be calling for the coaches head. http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/news/story?id=2444916
They did and that was on Tyrone Willingham's watch, although I don't blame him for it. And for what it is worth, even though the players were accused and there was a lot of publicity about it, the DA dropped the charges. No player was convicted of rape in the end. They were however all expelled from ND for their conduct, consensual or not.
Also I don't disagree with you that there are bad apples all over the country and some of them end up at Notre Dame and Texas. Texas pretty much does discipline like UF or anyother school does. ND however is much harsher on the athletes when they get in trouble. I can tell you that they Fla kid who failed 2 drug tests wouldn't be playing at ND after failing the 1st drug test. I'm not saying it's the best way, as I think there have been times that ND has been too harsh on the player. But it certainly sets a tone that while they can't watch you 24/7 to prevent you from getting in trouble but that if you do get in trouble, you'll pay consequences and wheter or not you are an important cog for the football team won't be taken into consideration.
82 I assume that you are referring to this http://www.centralohio.com/ohiostate/stories/20031008/football/414022.html Note all the players were expelled long before the judicial process was beginning.
Swamp, I ain't buying that...it's a cop out and an excuse for allowing it to continue. Coker can sure as he!! deny the thugs access to the facilities. Coker can sure as he!! reinforce the costructive behaviors that he wants his team to emulate. He sure as he!! can punish those that stray from the accepted path and dismiss those who can't seem to understand.....he can decide against offering scholies to those for whom anti-social behavior is an accepted way of life and he can reward those for whom positive character traits is not only reserved for Sunday school....in short I do not believe that he does not have the authority to do the right thing. I do believe that he has not used it appropriately and now the team for which he is responsible is a tragic mockery of all that is bad about college football. ....if he's "a great guy and a good coach" but unwilling or unable to do what is necessary to remove the inmates from running the asylum then he needs to go......in any event, it's clear he needs to go.
hey swamp since <t>i guess you overlooked the fact that 3 of the 4 guys charged in that rape case were from the southeast. two, in fact, were from florida.<br/> <br/> not that it matters, but since we're covering all the 'facts', i figured we could toss that out there too.</t>
Corey, I guess your point is that those bad apples from Florida couldn't get into Gainesville so they went to Notre Dame? :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:
The thing that bothered me about that rape case, is that both Abram Elam and Justin Smith (both Fla kids) would be 2 of the last kids I'd have suspected to put themselves in a position where they would not just be accused of rape but gang rape. I have a nephew who went to HS with Elam in West Palm Beach, played football with him said he was a great kid rode the bus from Lake Worth up to Cardinal Neuman HS (I think that is the one in WPB) and was very dedicated to succeeding. Justin Smith was an outstanding student, although he never really played that much at ND, was also a supposed high character kid. I don't know anything about Lorenzo Crawford or Donald Dykes. But Elam really had a bright future at ND and it was all gone in a night. I see that he's playing for the Cowboys now, but he'd have been a 2 year starter and as a backup soph he really showed that he had a nose for the football. He was almost single handedly the reason for our last win vs USC. I think he would have been a first day draft choice as a safety. That future gone and he can never make it up. Terry
Well here's the official statement from Donna the Prima Donna. http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/news/story?id=2629429 Notice that they don't want to throw any of the players "under the bus." That implies that they would be some sort of scapegoats. The presons that are supposed to be "thrown under the bus" are the real persons responsible. Well the players aren't really being punished, the coach is still coaching , and she's still preaching about how righteous the U is.
Give me Liberty or Give Me Death!! I can just see her shaking her fist...wait no I couldn't she's too short and I wouldn't be able to see her from the back of the room. But that zero tolerance policy is going to come back and bite them. There are fights in football on occassion, I know I certainly would not have wanted a zero tolerance policy in effect during the Mich State game. Our guys were involved in a short fight, nothing big inspite of the hysterionics of John L. Smith. To dismiss anybody for that wouldn't be fair. She's going to end up backing down on it or adding qualifiers as the situation arises. Terry
Miami and Dade counties are cesspools. This is Miami’s base recruiting area. What do you expect them to do go out of state? Administer Wunderlick tests? Why do you place all the blame on Coker and none on Paul Dee and president Shalalala ? They set the standards by which Coker must abide by. If they want better student athletes, they raise it or be prepared for the consequences which obviously they are afraid of. Where do you come up with this stuff ? You mean to tell me that these Miami NFL’ers who need that 500K tax write-off can be barred by Coker? Is Coker now making decisions on Miami’s athletic budget, money losing one at that? Not all of the NFL’ers are thugs, but their fraternity still has that thug culture as evident by Thomas’s comments. 18-19 year old kids are easily influenced. I’m not suggesting that Coker is blameless, but that he is not playing with a full deck. There’s not a coach in the world who can make a difference at Miami unless given a complete authority. The culture at Miami is dictated by the actions or lack of by Dee, Shalala and the Miami BOD. It’s pretty evident where they stand, by the wrist slapping penalties imposed by Shalala wouldn’t you agree? It’s an absolute joke that FIU can administer harsher punishment than Miami. Contrary to popular belief, Coker is a tough disciplinarian. He suspended a star player for the Rose Bowl vs OSU for TEAM violations not NCAA infractions. He suspended 4 star players for the FSU game for TEAM violations. Coker has more balls than most coaches and is much maligned in this regard. People think because he is a nice humble man, that he is a softie on discipline. Until the LSU game last year, there haven’t been many incidents under Coker. Until recently, I admired the job he has done cleaning up the image at Miami. I think Coker and the Miami players have been under a lot of stress and pressure this year, more so because they are losing. The logo stomping made popular by the idiot John L Smith compounds it. Even the choir boys at Dartmouth had a melee on the same day due to the popularity of the stomp so you can’t say just recruit better people or you will hold your very own Tressel to that same standard every time he recruits a thug like Clarett. Let’s go back to the melee and ask what could have been done to prevent it from happening? For one thing, if you listen to some of the sports talk shows, you would see that part of the problem is the referees. They share some of the responsibility to maintain order and sportsmanship. There were several events that precipitated the melee. If they don’t throw the flags and don’t eject players, then it should be no surprise when an eruption occurs. This is not the 1st time nor will it be the last time we see such a melee. It can happen to the best and toughest disciplinarians, just ask Lou Holtz. All it takes is a heated rivalry and a few bad apples to start a fracas. Coker is more a victim than a cause of these problems. The problems at Miami are deep rooted and start at the top. Compound that with the social economic background of their Miami/Dade county recruits. Add to that negative influences of their thug boosters and you have a cesspool that even Joe Paterno could not clean up. Believe it or not they do have higher academic standards than some schools and have higher graduation rates than schools like Texas. You are way off base in blaming Coker 100%. The mild punishment administered by Shalala is a clear indication of who is in control and how much winning means to them. Coker is just a cog in the wheel. He is one of the good guys of college football.
AJNJ I agree with a some of what you say, in that there is not just 1 reason why this fight happened. I agree the refs should have seen it comming and taken action earlier. As to wheter or not Coker is powerless to control the outside influences that surround the program I don't agree with that. Butch Davis was able to control it, he took over a program that Erickson and Johnson had crafted into the utltimate thug program and he laid down rules and made them stick. During his tenure, while not necessarily angels, Miami was on the road to shedding the thug image. Larry Coker is the guy who recruited a criminal in Willie Williams who everybody knew was a criminal but Larry, when it all blew up in their faces he and Shalala had the nerve to stand up and say they really never knew it they thought Willie was a good kid and deserved a 2nd chance...well in Willies case it was his 11th chance but who's counting. If Coker had any cajones, he would have stood up and said no more I don't care if you give to the program. This is my team and we aren't having any of this, if the NFL players stopped contributing and Paul Dee caved to them and fired Coker over it. Then at least he'd have his pride and dignity and he'd be able to get another job with his head held high. Now he's just a guy who let everybody run over him. I wouldn't want him Terry
That’s not true. They knew what they were getting into. In fact Willie Williams had more academic and behavior conditions than any other student. They had him going to counseling, they had higher academic standards for him, but here’s the real azz kicker, how many school presidents get involved with football recruiting? Isn’t their job to run the school? Again blaming Coker when the AD and president not only get involved in the decision making process but also endorse the recruit? http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/news/story?id=1847322 Butch Davis cleaned up some of the mess, but he did not run a clean program. If you read the local newspapers and comments by former players, it is Larry Coker not Butch who did a lot of house cleaning. Here’s a recent quote from Cortez Kennedy referring to the melee. The days when coaches had absolute authority over football programs are long gone. Lou Holtz had his hands tied at Notre Dame on recruiting, yes ? no ? Wasn’t there someone looking over his shoulder making decisions on his recruits. How about Tressel? Should we hang him for recruiting Clarett ? We know that’s BS because the AD reviews all recruiting , in fact turned down at least one that I know of because he didn’t like the weak academic background. How do you guys blame the coaches and give the AD’s and presidents a free pass?
AJ, I agree with your point about the President and the AD....they share in the responsibility. That said, if after the debacle of their bowl game fracas of last year Coker would have stated the following: "The next Miami player that throws a punch will be dismissed from the team" or words to that effect do you really believe that there would have been 3 fights in less than 1 full season? I don't... In terms of his authority, I can't imagine a scenario in which Jim Tressell, Charlie Weis, Joe Paterno, Lloyd Carr, etc would allow an alum/booster to have access to his football players and influence them in a manner to seek to instill or perpetuate behaviors that are contrary to the best interest of the program or in a manner inconsistent with the coach's own message......I don't care how much money they bring to the table. If he does allow it, he's incompetent and needs to be gone anyway. I have visions of Art Schlichter coming back and making book on the sidelines on a visit while Coach Tressel looks the other way.....I think not. The tragedy of Clarett and his actions after his dismissal from the Ohio State football team four years ago could not possibly have been forecast based upon his behavior and actions in high school and before. Indeed his work ethic was legend and he completed his high school requirements early so as to enroll in the winter and get a head start. There is not a poster on this board whose school did not offer him or salivate at the prospects of having Clarett line up at tailback. If I'm not mistaken he was a Notre Dame verbal prior to his commitment to the Buckeyes. We do agree however that the issues at the U are not solely the fault of Coker....there is plenty of blame to go around.
The buck stops at the Head Coaches office. That's just the way it is, and I seriously doubt that the AD at Ohio State, Notre Dame, Mich, Texas, OU, etc get deeply involved in recruiting football and certainly not the presidents of those schools. The AD's are probably aware, esp in football and basketball since those are the sports making the money. But it's always ultimately the coaches responsiblity that players represent the University well. Now the admissions people have to ultimately apply what ever rules and standards that the institution has regarding admission of athletes, and while I'm sure there are cases where coaches ask for and get a pass for certain players if they fall below even the lowered standards for athletes. But in the end the players that are presented to admissions are the coaches choice. But when an incident like this happens, the coach and the AD and the President end up on the firing line. In this case I think they all failed.
BuckeyeT....Legend has it that Clarett commited to Urban Meyer, when Meyer was an assistant coach at ND, the legend further goes that the only reason he changed to OSU was that at the time we didn't allow early entry. Dodged a bullet there!
Interesting conversations. I agree with Terry that the zero tolerance policy will likely come back to haunt them in the future and I don't think I would want a zero tolerance program for any fighting. In a split second that could happen to anybody. However the type incident that happened Sat should not happen, ever. As to Willie Williams, I can't agree with you Terry. I think that he should get a chance to play somewhere if he could stay out of trouble. Not at Florida because he caused an incident when he was recruiting there. However I never had an objection to him getting a scholarship somewhere with conditions attached. Unfortunately when given another chance he blew it. But I think society would have been better off with a Willie Williams who succeded despite the probation and been able to go into the pros. That is probably out of the question for him now and he could well end up in jail like Clarett.