American Hero, Party Savior or RINO?

Discussion in 'Political Discussions' started by BuckeyeT, Jun 26, 2023.

  1. BuckeyeT

    BuckeyeT Well-Known Member

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    Conservative retired federal judge calls GOP 'spineless' in scathing rebuke of Trump | CNN Politics

    He has captured the essence of my views in a much more eloquent and compelling manner than I could ever muster. He also wrote an Op-Ed published in the NY Times but I'm not a subscriber so I didn't get to read it but CNN has captured much of the essence of his thoughts. Saddens me to no end that the party will continue down this path all the way to another win in 24 for the lefties. My guess is that given where see ourselves today, there is a fair number of Republican Senators that would love to have a re-do of their 2nd impeachment vote.

    "Conservative retired federal judge J. Michael Luttig has called the Republican Party base “spineless” for its continued support of former President Donald Trump and submitted that the GOP is destroying itself."
     
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  2. Stu Ryckman

    Stu Ryckman Well-Known Member

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    I have felt that way all along as well...but I'm not sure about his holding up of Christopher Wray.

    The elephant in the room, IMO, is that most Republicans...even the moderates...even those who believe Trump did very bad and probably illegal things...feel rather intensely that there is a double standard of justice at the upper levels of the justice system and the media. I certainly cannot shake that feeling myself. Unless that issue is addressed, either by correcting it or proving it wrong, this country will continue to pick itself apart. I guess we expect it anymore from the media, but not from the Justice Department.
     
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  3. George Krebs

    George Krebs Well-Known Member

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    As a two time Trump voter I have stated that I will never vote for him again. Nothing has changed with me. If he somehow, inexplicably ends up on the ballot I will submit a write in vote for the best candidate in my view. There are only two candidates at this time I have completely eliminated, Trump and Biden. I am a completely unaffiliated voter and will remain so for the duration. I do believe that the FBI, IRS and CIA are for the most part politically motivated. I think that a majority of Americans do not trust their government at this point and that will continue to grow until we are given a reason to feel otherwise. Things are so bad in this country right now, so divided on so many fronts that I sometimes wonder if any candidate who's name does not start with Jesus and end with Christ can repair the damage. But that's just me.
     
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  4. BuckeyeT

    BuckeyeT Well-Known Member

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    I'm somewhat sympathetic and, to some degree, agree with the perception of a double standard certainly with what we know as old line, main stream and print media, the bias was real and maddening. In this day and age with Fox, Newsmax, OAN, et al and all the online sources, prob more "fair and balanced" tho we're heading towards the fringes on both sides. I'm less convinced and concerned about the "justice system" perception. Seems equally likely to be more like sour grapes from whichever side had their ox gored most recently and one can argue back and forth incessantly citing high profile cases from both sides in perpetuity and we probably will, stay tuned ;). Ala Chris Wray was a hand picked Trumpian, the judge that granted the search warrant for Mar a Lago was appointed by Trump, Comey sank Hilary's chances with his ill-timed presser, etc. I'm less concerned because at the end of the day, the good people of America and our court system will have the final and ultimate say be it in a grand jury or court proceeding. Fortunately for us, there are rules of evidence and they are much more robust in a court proceeding than in the court of the public opinion. If there is a case for indictment a grand jury of their peers will decide or not send them to trial where another jury of their peers will weigh the evidence from both sides, listen to a robust defense and decide if they are guilty and must pay for their misdeeds or if not, case closed, they go home. Thank God for the rules of evidence, as we have seen and continue to pay the price of the tragic consequences of lies and misinformation being spewed forth to unsuspecting and uninformed believers on the public square by people in positions of authority and trust.
     
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    Last edited: Jun 27, 2023
  5. gipper

    gipper Well-Known Member

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    I don't see what purpose it serves to vilify the Republican base because they don't have the same knowledge or prejudices as this judge has. The average Joe, knows that when Trump was president, the border was protected, a wall was started, and a remain in Mexico policy was instituted. They know that taxes were reduced, inflation was low, real wages rose and unemployment was low. They know that the people running the government like Pompeo, Mnuchin, Carson, Pence to name a few were competent. They know that the Supreme Court was kept Conservative with the addition of justices who follow the Constitution. They know that no new wars began and troops were brought home. They know that their President stood up to China and used tariffs to make his point. They know that new trade deals were entered into with Canada and Mexico that were better for the US.
    They yearn for those years and hope to get it back. Like me they find it just difficult to accept that Americans voted for an infirm, incompetent, completely corrupt slug who can barely function. It took a world-wide pandemic and millions of mail in ballots to impact the last election.
    Personally, I'm appalled by the disgraceful way Trump refers to those men who served the country so well under him. Pence, Barr, Pompeo to name a few deserve much better. He's crossed the line.
    As I wrote some time back, the leadership in many of the government agencies is replete with ideologs, who are taking away our freedom through administrative action. Our justice Dept. is embarrassingly biased. Our Environmental agency acts as though it rather than Congress lays down laws under which Americans have to live. The energy policy we've embarked on has destroyed thousands of good paying jobs, reversed our ability to export energy and inflated our currency. Our schools are woefully deficient in competent leadership.
    I don't see anyone who has the know-how, experience and courage to tackle our problems.
     
  6. George Krebs

    George Krebs Well-Known Member

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    I think history will record February 2019 and the onset of covid as THE defining moment in American history. It changed everything. It stopped a juggernaut US economy and Donald Trump right in their tracks. The fact that it was developed in China synthetically will always hold it under a major cloud of suspicion. Given the Biden family's documented ties to the underbelly of China and Ukraine it could be considered the cornerstone of the New World Order takeover. So much has inexplicably occurred in the ensuing four years and covid was the springboard for all of it.

    We elected a demented man who barely campaigned in an election that was decided by mail in ballots and stop and start counting when all indications pointed to an easy Trump win. The new boss immediately and intentionally tanked his own energy sector, opened all of our borders, spoke divisively at every turn, encouraged and courted the extreme fringe elements of society, has been completely indifferent to the tidal wave of urban violent crime and rampant opioid destruction, has allowed the US position in the world to be steamrolled by the Chinese and has accomplished all this while working a three day week. In fact, the only thing that seems to motivate Biden and his administration is their hatred of all things MAGA. The very concept of Make America Great Again is poison to them.

    And covid was the igniter of all of this.
     
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  7. BuckeyeT

    BuckeyeT Well-Known Member

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    Krebsie, I don't remember that at all. I recall all signs pointing to Biden being comfortably ahead in composite polling leading up to the 2020 election. That said, those 81 million people did not vote for Joe Biden for President, they voted against Donald Trump remaining in office. By my interpretation, that's the entire point of the learned Judge's argument against Republican leadership. As has been evidenced to the world in humiliating fashion, the collection of odious character traits and criminal behaviors make him rather uniquely unfit to serve as chief executive with zero chance that the American people will make the same mistake twice. The Republican leadership is well aware of those traits and behaviors yet refuse to acknowledge them and cast him aside for fear of losing political influence within the base and being PNG'd by the party faithful. The notion that the American people will choose to elect a man responsible for Jan 6, found liable by a jury of his peers for sexual assault, indicted for 31 federal felony charges of willful retention of national defense information, not to mention the NY falsification/tax fraud indictment and looming indictments in the election interference cases related to Jan 6 and Georgia vote. The very notion is absurd and the party leaders know that yet fail to act. The presidency is there for the taking, Biden is deeply unpopular so there is only one course of action that will prevent a Republican win, yet that is the course they have chosen thus far. Leadership is leading the party down the path of yet another failure....the good judge is just pointing out the obvious
     
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  8. gipper

    gipper Well-Known Member

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    Just so we're clear, the American people have chosen an individual who like Trump took and kept secret documents although unlike Trump this was done while a Senator and VP who do not have the same privileges that the President does. They've chosen an individual who is on record as having threatened to withhold American aid to Ukraine unless a prosecutor investigating Burisma, for whom his son was a director, was fired. This is classic quid pro quo as we learned during the first mock Trump impeachment. They've chosen an individual whose family was receiving millions from foreign interests while he was VP and forming US policy and we've also learned that paying taxes on that money was not part of their program. We've chosen an individual that allowed a spy balloon to travel over sensitive military bases sending information back to China and he did nothing until after it had apparently finished it's mission. They chose an individual who literally fled from Afghanistan, leaving US citizens and Afghan allies at the mercy of the Taliban and at the same time gave our NATO allies little or no notice of our flight. Apparently Judge Luttig has no problem with Biden running again.
    The Jan. 6 incident was individuals protesting what the majority of the people had done. So let me get this straight, the "Republican party leaders" are supposed to go against what the majority of their voters select in primaries? What's the difference?
     
  9. BuckeyeT

    BuckeyeT Well-Known Member

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    "Like Trump...."? Utter nonsense and I know damn well you're not being serious and I believe you to be serious minded guy. You just like a good argument. You know that's just a political narrative spewed forth to deflect for lack of a more reasonable justification for his egregious behavior. In truth it might be the best he's got given a case where the defendant's own voice provides all the evidence needed for a conviction is a pretty solid one. It's not the fact that he had the documents that's gonna fry his a$$ but what they were and what he did with them after they were discovered. The notion that the material retained and behaviors exhibited re: false certifications, concealment, obstruction and dissemination are somehow equivalent between the two is absurd on its face. I appreciate you trying to defend your guy but there ain't no way that the American people are gonna put him back in a position where he can betray them and their country yet again. Republicans need a candidate that can win and he just can't....it ain't rocket science Kevin.
     
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  10. gipper

    gipper Well-Known Member

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    What I'm saying is that Senators are not allowed to removed top secret papers from a SCIF located at the Capital. How classified papers not only were removed but ended up in a residential garage is difficult to fathom. Presidents can declassify documents, senators and VPs can't.
    It's difficult to see where papers kept at Mira Lago under private and Secret Service protection are less secure that those documents in a garage. What's the defense to this? Well if the Hunter case is any example, the investigation will be finished sometime after Jan. 2025. Hell the gun charge could have been brought in a month. They sat on the tax charges long enough so that the claims covering taxes not paid in 2014 and 15 were barred by the statute of limitations.
    Speaking of the S of L the CIVIL case against Trump in NY should have been barred. The legislature managed to extend it probably with Trump in mind. As far as I'm concerned that suit is in the Anita Hill-Christine Blasey Ford pile for the believers. I just don't buy that a multi millionaire TV celebrity like Trump who can get lots of women at the drop of a hat, has to assault a woman in a department store. I'm not buying it. You might take the jury verdict for fact but we all remember the OJ trial. Having selected dozens of juries, I know that they don't always do what the evidence says that they should.
     
  11. BuckeyeT

    BuckeyeT Well-Known Member

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    Gip, I get it, let it be noted that if you or those of your ilk made up the entirety of the electorate, Trump would have a shot to return to the Oval office. It is not and he will not. In truth, your comments were a very effective validation of the fine Judge's view. Part obfuscation, part creative justification for documented misdeeds. There are 10 million more registered female voters than men. It is almost certain that woman will make up more than half of the votes cast. The part about the jury being wrong because he has money and a reality TV show and could bang any woman he wanted is just not gonna play well as a campaign theme with suburban soccer moms in the swing states. I hear what you say about juries, but barring overturn, in our system of justice, the results still bear the rule of law and as the learned Judge noted, that whole rule of law thing has been especially problematic for Trump to grasp. The incumbent is weak and unpopular, the Oval is there for the taking, his is the only horse that won't take you there, but rather lead down a very dark path away from core principles. McCarthy is sending out fundraising emails touting Trump as "Biden's strongest opponent" WTF? Madness....the guy has balls the size of BB's
     
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  12. gipper

    gipper Well-Known Member

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    Let's get this straight, I did not "justify" what it's claimed Trump did. I raised questions as to whether or not it actually happened. We've seen this from the Democratic playbook over and over again most recently in the Cavanaugh hearings where women lined up to lie about the nominee because of their political bent. Unlike those who carry an irrational hatred for Trump, I chose to rationally look at what was being alleged in the CIVIL suit. The protection afforded defendants is not available in civil suits and the burden of proof is much less. So the jury pulled from a community where over 80% voted for his opponent was asked who do you believe, this woman or the politician you hate?
    Even after the Muller report and their failure to find any evidence that the Trump Campaign colluded with Russia, a large portion of the American public STILL believed it happened. That's because they wanted to believe it.
    And while we're on that subject, let's look at what's been discovered about that whole sorted matter. Unlike the Jan. 6 incident which had little impact on the country, the Russian collusion hoax, led to widespread distrust in the legitimacy of the elected administration and severely handicapped those in the administration. Thousands of hours were spent finding and producing documents and preparing for and giving sworn testimony all on a manufactured charge authored by Democrats. The source of the allegations has been traced to the Clinton campaign but we know from the Durham report that Obama and Biden were aware of the lack of any factual basis for the investigation but did nothing to stop it. Apparently the "rule of law thing" is absent when discussing those bringing all sorts of claims against Trump. But like I said it plays to the irrational haters. It was a true "THREAT TO OUR DEMOCRACY."
    Where was this rabid concern for national security and classified documents when Hillary's server was found to have contained just that. And it was believed that this unsecure server had most likely been hacked!!! Where were the criminal charges? How could thousands of emails be deleted and handheld devices been destroyed and obstruction of justice charges not been brought? But like I said this "rule of law thing" doesn't seem to play much in our government unless it can be used to play to the haters.
     
  13. BuckeyeT

    BuckeyeT Well-Known Member

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    "Unlike the Jan. 6 incident which had little impact on the country"

    I don't know Gip, violently trashing the 200+ year tradition of peaceful transfer of power is a pretty damn big deal to me and many moderates like me and independents that have not drank the MAGA kool aid. My guess is that the judgement of history will have a different view of the impact of his behaviors surrounding the 2020 election. No doubt we'll find out more from the pending indictment or likely two once filed.

    That brings us nicely back from outer orbit - tho your defense was a spirited one - to the original topic of the good Judge's view that the spineless Republican leadership refuses to jettison a disgraced ex-President whose respect for the rule of law is the stuff of legend, currently facing multiple felony indictments for fraud and betraying his country with a tortured relationship with the truth and found liable for a multi-million dollar judgement for sexual abuse at which trial he didn't even bother to testify in his own defense.

    At issue is in the face of an unpopular, weak incumbent and an election there for the taking, is he the guy you want to put your money on to carry the Republican standard and values to victory in front of the American people. I'm a firm no as are millions of centrist/moderate conservatives like me in addition to the entirety to the country to our left.....his nomination would set the party back a generation and you'd guarantee 4 more years of lefty rule. We need a guy around which the entire party can rally. This leadership needs to jettison this guy, get back to team normal and traditional values
     
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  14. gipper

    gipper Well-Known Member

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    I think it's time to review the past dealings between Trump and those entrusted with enforcing the laws of the country.
    2016 during the presidential campaign, the FBI using untrue applications obtained FISA warrants and illegally spied on members of the Trump campaign.
    2017 shortly after Trump takes office the FBI set up his National Security Advisor Gen. Flynn. Flynn facing bankruptcy from the cost of defending himself and under the threat of charges against his son enters a plea of guilty. Subsequent review of FBI documents reveal that there was no real investigation and that the purpose of the questioning of Flynn was to set him up. The Department of Justice eventually drops the charges against Flynn.
    Next comes the Russia collusion hoax and investigation. From the onset the FBI knew as Peter Strzok texted to his paramour Paige "there's no there, there." Still the did everything they could to find something to pin on Trump. After 2 years, millions of dollars paying for dozens of attorneys and FBI agents, they came up with his evening with a porn star Stormy Daniels.
    2020 the presidential election campaign. The FBI has possession of the Hunter Biden laptop and have a year to examine it. As the story breaks, the FBI go to the top social networks indicating that they should carefully avoid stories involving "Russian disinformation." This is clearly an attempt to squelch the laptop story. As Blinken rounds up 51 partisan former intelligence employees and gets them to lie about the Biden laptop, the FBI who KNOW it in fact is genuine, sit by and remains silent. They're complicit in this disinformation.
    After this history a false charges, lies and election tampering by the chief law enforcement agency of the country and Donald Trump, you actually wonder about his respect for the rule of law? You actually wonder why those that support him take these charges as anything more than more of the same old corrupt ******** that the Democrat party directed FBI has been throwing at Trump for 7 years.
     
  15. George Krebs

    George Krebs Well-Known Member

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    I think you two made my argument perhaps more eloquently than I could have. Neither of these nefarious characters should be in charge. They are both way too old and way too dishonest and crooked to serve in any responsible position of leadership. In truth, Trump contributed mightily to the events of Jan. 6 and then stood there and watched for hours until his family convinced him to do something. And his demeanor is that of a four year old. And Biden is a crook, a profiteer and represents everything that is wrong with party politics. And we won't even talk about his obvious physical and mental limitations. You can make a case without too much effort that both belong in prison but due to their advanced and the critical need of this nation to move forward post haste, we should consider simply removing them from public service permanently and allow them to live out their miserable lives on their own dime.

    So my question to both of you is " if not these two aged megalomaniacs the who " because fellas, this boat is sinking. We are a crime ridden, drug addled, privileged ,self-important, increasingly ignorant, totally divided nation of virtually no sovereignty and crushed un der the weight of our own debt and general weaknesses. We don't have the time to debate the qualities of Biden and Trump. We need to choose a serious candidate with vision, skill, reputation in the private sector, a good track record and the right mix of youth and experience. The next guy has got to hit a home run in his first at bat.

    So who can we discuss as serious candidates ?
     
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  16. HUSKERMAN-HUSKERFAN

    HUSKERMAN-HUSKERFAN Well-Known Member

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    That damn 19th ammendment is a pickle for Trump.

    I have heard and spoken with numerous Burb moms say they hate Trump. Not to much reasoning behind it, just that they don't like him. My wife on the other hand does. She could care less about who he's screwing, she sees the same thing I did. Great economy, America First, border protection, swamp draining, and a guy who talked to the nation. All 180's that the current folks behind the curtain are doing with their hands in the back of puppet Joe. Thus is just from the average Mr. And Mrs. Smith of America, but Ironically part of the poll that shows the Former President well ahead of everyone, Trumped up charges or not.
     
  17. HUSKERMAN-HUSKERFAN

    HUSKERMAN-HUSKERFAN Well-Known Member

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    Jan 6th was gonna happen without Trump. Those people were in place prior with an agenda, not unlike what we've seen in Portland, Seattle, etc.
     
  18. gipper

    gipper Well-Known Member

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    Since you asked George, my first choice is DeSantis. He's young, knows the importance of the boarder, stands up to the media, is tough on crime and stresses education. He's served in Congress so he at least is not a newbie. I hope he could assemble an outstanding cabinet and not a Jimmy Carter old friends one.
    My second choice is Tim Scott. Love this guy. I believe he'd be a unifier in many ways. He lacks executive experience but his enthusiasm and conservative values outweigh that. I think he'd be a good role model for young men from disadvantaged neighborhoods.
    I'd like to see Vivek Ramaswamy have some position in a new administration. His economic policies are, I believe a roadmap to success. Someone has to flush the debris in the Justice Department. Who better to kick ass there but Ted Cruz.
    We need talented people running our government not incompetent tokens. We need to withdraw from the Paris accords and any foreign agreement that used "climate" as an excuse to steal money from the American taxpayers to pad the bank accounts of foreign dictators. We need to get tough with Iran and continue to isolate it in the Middle East. We need to reestablish good relations with both Israel and Saudi Arabia. We need a good trade agreement with Great Britain. We need to renew our commitment to allies especially those in Southeast Asia. We need to decouple our economy with China. We cannot rely on them for critical products such as antibiotics and rare earths minerals.
    Now is the time to strengthen NATO while the Russian expansion attempt is pending.
    Lastly, we've got to unchain the American energy industry. We've got a great opportunity to provide Europe with natural gas, removing their dependence on Russia. Drill baby, drill.
     
  19. George Krebs

    George Krebs Well-Known Member

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  20. George Krebs

    George Krebs Well-Known Member

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    Gipper, you named my Top 3 at this moment, in order. I lean toward DeSantis because I think successful governors in general make better presidents. He needs to work on his delivery and his message because there are 49 other states besides Florida and he needs to recognize that. And don't try to out-Trump Trump. I like Tim Scott a lot. He is enthusiastic and on point with his message of self-reliance. Ramiswamy is so correct on so much but I'm concerned about his ability to navigate the swamp.