A GREAT article from Jerusalem Post

Tom,
I won't condone any terrorism. It is the intolerance that springs the terrorism that should be the enemy here. And if we are going to be fair and stress equality, why not mention the other side as well.

Though Arafat's insistence on the 3 million may not have been pragmatically right, we should judge it by whether it was morally right. Do you know how many Palestinians have been displaced by Israel? Do you know how present day Arabs are discriminated against by Israel? Do you know that by expelling or restricting Arabs and having an open door to Jews, that Israel has manipulated a Jewish majority?

I can't comment on the figure of 3 million but I can understand the principle of allowing a certain number of people back into Israel. I disagree, on a pragmatic basis, with Arafat's insistence that wrecked the deal but I can understand his problems with the deal.

Neither side is all good or all bad. But only recognizing the bad of one side and the good of the other does not advance a solution.

Jif,
Neat thing to say when you want to dismiss points but cannot bring up specific reasons why. It is the dismissing of points that is the problem. Not because one person or the other wins an argument, but because of the issues of justice that are involved.

Might I suggest that what you learned before is neither all right nor all wrong and now you must make decisions as to what to accept and what to reject.

 

Curtis..what I have to say in response to you is better left unsaid at this point...and yes... I know..."some of your best friends are Jewish". jif

 

Curtis,

Since we are playing the "do you know" game... Did YOU know that the Palestinians were given their own country at the same time as Israel? Did you know that they were not satisfied, as freaking usual and declared war on Israel along with most of the Arab world? Did you know that they have been fighting a terrorist war ever since?

I am not Jewish, nor do I claim to know how the Jewish people feel. I do know that they have been held back from defending their country to the extent that they would wish, by the UN. With the pain and anguish that the terrorists have inflicted upon us with three separate acts, just think about what Israel has had to endure over the last half decade +.

I will remove my soap box and return to monitoring.

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Tennessee Tom McCord
Go Vols! '98 National Champions!!!<B>
It's Football Time in Tennessee!!!</B>
tbmccord@austin.rr.com


[This message has been edited by TennesseeTom (edited 10-01-2001).]

 

Tom,
So it is ok to take land away from people provided that you offer them your choice of other land? Where is the equality where you let one group choose where to live and the other group has their land chosen for them? Don't the words Indian Reservations ring a bell here?

BTW, not all Jews are Zionists. And again, initially the Zionists were secular Jews and their ideas were rejected by the religious conservatives of their time.

I don't think it is practical or moral to kick the Jews off their land. The damage has been done. But that is for the same reason why it was wrong to kick the Arabs of their land back when Israel was being formed as its own nation.

Curt

[This message has been edited by CDAY (edited 10-01-2001).]

 

So... would the Cherokee be right to start car bombing your neighborhood to gain back what is rightfully theirs? I agree that the Palestinians have a gripe. However, you do not get anyone to side with you by killing innocent people. Until they are ready to compromise, they will always be on the outside looking in.

------------------
Tennessee Tom McCord
Go Vols! '98 National Champions!!!<B>
It's Football Time in Tennessee!!!</B>
tbmccord@austin.rr.com

 

I think that is precisely C's point, Tom...

 

Now it is not... Curtis is trying to make a point that Israel is wrong. The UN set this up. The Palestinians started a war over the agreement between nations. They did not want to bargain. They wanted war. They still do. They bomb innocent civilians just as their friends did at the WTC.

------------------
Tennessee Tom McCord
Go Vols! '98 National Champions!!!<B>
It's Football Time in Tennessee!!!</B>
tbmccord@austin.rr.com

 

Tom,
You have missed my point. My point is that BOTH SIDES are wrong.

In setting up the nation of Israel as a Jewish state, which was the goal of the Zionists way back during the beginning of the British occupation of Palestine in 1917 and before, the rights of Arabs were violated. Basic rights such as being able to choose where to live and own land. The infrastructure of the Arab society in Israel has been destroyed, 80% of their land has been confiscated, so as to make them dependent on the Jews for their living. Basic rights that are recognized in this country for any group of people are denied the Arabs living in Israel because one of the tenets of the country is that it is a Jewish homeland and therefore Arab influence and power that would naturally derive from their presence in Israel has been surpressed.

The Palestinians have been severely wrong in participating in the terrorism that has plagued the country. Using civilians as shields as well as targets has not only made them guilty of horrible crimes, it has been counterproductive in their goals. But Israelis have also committed violent crimes against Palestinians.

My point in stating how to end the terrorism is this, not only should the practitioners of terrorism be attacked, the reasons for terrorism should be addressed. The Palestinian crimes of terrorism should not give us an excuse to overlook the legitimate complaints that they do have. Until a peaceful solution to their complaints becomes a viable alternative, then there is no hope to ending the terrorism--terrorism that will not only attack innocent Israelis but terrorism that will attack those who support the current establishment. There are many, throughout the Arab world, who feel a solidarity with those Arabs who are oppressed in Israel.

I'm sorry my notes are not as short as yours but I see the problem as being much more complex than just one side is right and the other is wrong.

 

Curtis,

I appreciate your point of view that we can't turn back the clock. We do have to understand that there are 'wrongs' on both sides of the coin. We do have to look at it as a "where do we go from here" point of view.

What I would like to make a point of is that the two "wrongs" are not equal. Even today, true Zionists are relatively small in number. Meanwhile the anti-Semetic genocide of the Palestinians consumes the VAST majority of the population...

Where there are two wrongs here, one is the wrong of aggressive nationalism while the other is genocide..

For a tad of hypothetical here:

If the US sat everyone down and gave them all one big three stooges slap to calm them down.... and said "where do we go from here?"

The following things would happen...

Isreal and the US would wind up making huge concessions to accomodate the PA.(again) They would agree to a "settled land agreement" and all would declare "peace" in the region..

Then within a year's time, the PA would want MORE land (or at least that is the excuse) and resume the terrorist attacks again.. This war will be never ending because the PA wants the Jews to be DESTROYED or removed from the region.

Now we can b*tch about borders and land claims till the cows come home and that is fine with me. The bottom line here is that one side here (and it isn't Isreal) wants the world cleaned of the Jewish people. Since they can't have that, then they want "their" world cleaned of the Jewish people.

I am not always a big supporter of Isreal and their policies... I believe that are now in a state where they are WAY overzealous in their retaliation of the PA. Instead of following retreating terrorists into civilian hiding areas, I would rather see them go back to the old days of simply heading on thru and destroying military bases and strongholds.. But they have lost faith that fighting military targets does any good.

Did you see the special run by Fox yesterday on the situation in Palestine?? Little children....12 and under, IN MASS NUMBERS training for future terrorists activities. Palestinian families are paid upwards of 12 to 15k for each child under 12 that joins these camps...

I do agree that there are wrongs on both sides, but you are comparing misdemeanors to felons and trying to call it dutch...


Gipper,

The Mexican border is just horrible. The problem or difference between the two is that the US yields much less power in Canada. We know for a fact that ObL has factions living and training in Montreal and they have been there for years. The Canadiens know this and continue to keep the situation 'monitored'.

While they are "watching them" they have used Canada as a pipeline of terrorist traffic into the US.


The borders in San Ysidro, CA and El Paso, TX are just horrible... IMHO, the US is very aware of the illegal immigration population flowing thru but until now, no one was able to stand up and stop this without being called a racist... (especially in CA) I've sat in the parking lot of McDonald's in San Ysidro and seen a MINIMUM of 50 illegals bolt into the country with 2 INS agents chasing them.. Pretty sad thing to see.

The problem with the Great Lakes is that due to NAFTA, it is a worry that people can ship lots of illegal cargo into the US and there is almost no way to stop it..

[This message has been edited by Corey (edited 10-02-2001).]

 

Corey,

Agreed on almost 100%. When I was in Israel earlier this year, there was a reporter that was killed by the PA for leaking a tape to the Israeli people. This tape was an "advertisement" from Arafat offering money to the family of any suicide bomber and the equivalent of sainthood. He calls for Palestinians to rise up against the Jews and then takes off to another country on "political trips" while the violence is actually taking place. I can not comprehend anyone trying to justify what the PA does.

------------------
Tennessee Tom McCord
Go Vols! '98 National Champions!!!<B>
It's Football Time in Tennessee!!!</B>
tbmccord@austin.rr.com

 

Corey,
It isn't just the land, it is also about treating the Arabs who are currently in Israel with equality. When I get time tonight, I will share a quote from the work:
"the Jewish case for British Trusteeship." It was written post WWI in favor of British control as opposed to American control of Palestine. It is revealing as to the degree of continuity/discontinuity between the two democracies.

The point of what I am writing is that fighting terrorism will involve more than just hunting the current terrorists and their resources. Unless we modify, not reverse, our support of Israel, we will see more and more such children volunteer for terrorism rather than fewer and fewer. One think Martin Luther King was worried about regarding his movement is that the oppressed often become oppressors. If the US fully supports an oppressive gov't, then enemies of that oppression will strike out at us as well. If we make moves to end the oppression, over time, we have a better chance of reducing the number of terrorists.

Tom,
Who is justifying terrorism here?

 

Tom,

Did you catch the PA's act after the tapes of "celebration in the streets" hit international TV?? A top PA official issued a news release that stated the PA could not guarantee the safety of any journalist videotaping "illegal demonstrations".. (notice: they are cracking down on the journalists and not the ones commiting 'illegal' acts.)

Curts,

As I type this, there are reports circling in credible groups that the Palestine is as close as they are ever going to be to having their "Palestine" state that will be recognized by the US...It appears that the US may be on the verge on giving them everything that they want sans the genocide and the total removal of Jews from Jerusalem. I hope this is the case... because from that point on, NO MORE. This morning TonY Blair in a speech issued a statement to the Taliban, "Surrender the terrorists, or surrender power." Those in the PA may be on the verge of getting what they want, but once they get it, a compromise of the peace settlement will mean that they will face those same statements.

My point in my prior post to you is that you are using 100 years of history and I am using 5000. In either event, it is futile. We must go from this time forward. If you attempt to bring any part of the past up, you corrupt the future of any possible relationship. I want peace in the ME, I want a compromise that will make both the PA and Isreal happy. The problem is that the PA has shown no true willingness to compromise whatsoever...

There is a scary rumor out there right now that Arafat is in danger because he had been looking into arresting some low level terrorists to "keep peace" in the process ongoing...Although I have to admit, he deserves to face the wrath that he has helped create...but that would be looking toward the past

 

Corey,
Back in 1919, when it was being decided as to what country should govern Palestine, a Zionist wrote stating that it should not be the Americans because of the following:

1) American democracy depended on quantitative measurements (votes) rather than qualitative (one group being superior to the other).
2) The Arab population back then far outnumbered the Jewish population
3) The combination of the above would cause making Palestine a Jewish homeland or state much more difficult and take much more time.

As a result, the British were preferred to the Americans, though at the time the possibility of an American administration of the land was not realistic.

The point here was that an American democracy was a threat to Zionistic goals. Now that was back in 1919 before many Arabs were expelled and many Jews were brought in. My question is whether or not Israel, being a Zionistic state, really shares the US's values of democracy and freedom.

As you read about the history of Palestine, it is extremely sad how both sides treat each other. One wishes that we could just let them decide it on their own. But with the advent of technology which has led to the increased destructive power of the individual as seen in terrorism, we can't.

Just as people who abuse others were often abused in the past, people who were oppressed become the next oppressors. Look at Russia. In response to being invaded and oppressed by Germany, they became oppressive with the Eastern European countries. There are many other examples of oppressed peoples becoming oppressors.

This is why we can't continue to allow injustice in the Middle East to continue despite the fact that it has been going on for milleniums. With the result of oppression being the birth of new oppressors and with technology increasing the power of individuals so that individuals can cause a tremendous amount of destruction that only countries could before, we have to find a way to stop the oppression from both sides here.
This is why I have been critical of Israel's treatment of the Palestinians. This should not be confused with not caring about the Palistinian terrorism practiced on Israel. Both are wrong. One hides behind laws and society and the other uses human shields.

 

Curtis,

Good points..

Have you seen the news from the ME this morning that various Islamic states are now willing to remove terrorism but only IF there is a creation of an official Palestine state.

I hope everyone takes a step back to realize the impact of that statement. I hope everyone remembers the timeline of all this. I hope everyone that begs for mercy and patience with the other Arab states remember these "demands"...

I am so proud of "Dubya" and our country for taking their time with this current operation. As time goes on, each and every one of this scoundrels will show their true colors and will face summary justice in time.

 

Damn! Wicked people ..those Israelis..I never realized their lust for power before.Turn your back on them, and they will own the middle east. jif

 

Jif,
didn't your Sunday School teacher tell you that we are all wicked?

Corey,
With the amount of bitterness and bloodshed that has gone on, it will take at least a generation for all of the terrorism to subside over that issue. Hope we can be patient and recognize progress when it comes.

Moderator,
Can you believe the brevity of this note [Foreign language Edited... when will you understand and quit bucking the system?

[This message has been edited by TennesseeTom (edited 10-03-2001).]

 

LOL!

A little sarcasm Joel?

 

Tom,
I find you foreign language deletions to be a form of discrimination against Pentacostals who spontaneously use other languages--I hasten to add that I am not Pentecostal.

Curt

 

Curtis..I suggest you play by the rules. No foreign language means exactly that. Stop with all your DOUBLE TALK! jif

 

Jif,

What in the world were you doing in 'Sunday School?' Slummin'??

jb