8/23 GOP Debate

Discussion in 'Political Discussions' started by BuckeyeT, Aug 24, 2023.

  1. BuckeyeT

    BuckeyeT Well-Known Member

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    Gip you'll get no arguments from me about the merits of Biden's broad economic, immigration or energy policies, I've been highly critical of all tho was supportive of the bi-partisan infrastructure bill....long overdue in my view and much needed as you yourself suggested.

    I see no benefit to US global interests by enabling the Russians to gain their foreign policy designs by the force of arms. A victory in that regard is victory for authoritarian regimes around the globe, to China's Xi re: Taiwan, his expansionist designs in the South China Sea, and an overt reversal of our position re: allies both in Europe and the Pacific. In my view it would serve to substantially weaken US global credibility and substantially hinder our ability to further our global interests. It stands in direct contrast to long standing and very effective US policy that won the cold war. It surely is not in the best interest of the Ukrainians to abandon them to the horrors of the Russian war criminal, ignore our obligations as signatory under the Budapest Memorandum and turn our back on US support for democracy and national self-determination.
     
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  2. gipper

    gipper Well-Known Member

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    We left thousands of Afghanis who helped us during our years there. We even left American citizens there. We gave our allies almost no notice that we were running and they also left citizens behind. We ignored the Budapest moratorium when we let Putin waltz into Crimea. Now all of a sudden we're honorable, loyal and true to our obligations? That ships sailed a long time ago.
     
  3. Stu Ryckman

    Stu Ryckman Well-Known Member

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    Agree except with the ship sailed. You can still try to do the right thing despite past total screwups
     
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  4. BuckeyeT

    BuckeyeT Well-Known Member

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    Exactly right, as I used to tell my kids, the fact that you made a bad decision in the past is a rather poor reason to do it again. Also agree that while the ship did falter recently it hasn't sailed and is on full display with the NATO response in assisting the brave Ukrainian people repel the illegal invasion from a vastly more powerful rogue neighbor
     
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  5. Terry O'Keefe

    Terry O'Keefe Well-Known Member Administrator

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    Interesting post from a respected poster on a closed board.

    As Ukraine fights on against a ruthless enemy with imperial ambitions in the largest European war since World War II—George Will describes it as “the most important world event since the end of the Cold War” (Washington Post, 09/06/2023)—the struggle receives scant notice in most news outlets. Prominent scholars join Will in lamenting this oversight.

    Will cites a recent article in Foreign Affairs by Catholic University historian Michael Kimmage: “Born in the Bloodlands: Ukraine and the Future of the European Project” (September/October 2023). Kimmage writes: “…A Ukrainian victory would not cement the country’s membership in the West on the basis of cosmopolitan liberalism or postnational pacifism. Ukraine’s self-creation within the West will be achieved through a war to preserve and defend the Ukrainian nation. As much as Europe has changed Ukraine since 1991, drawing it away from its Soviet past, Ukraine will shape Europe. The nature of its postwar nationhood will change the idea of Europe.”

    In describing the challenge to the EU project represented by the war, Kimmage hymns a book by historian Serhii Plokhy: The Russo-Ukrainian War: The Return of History (Penguin, 2023). Take that, Francis Fukuyama! Plokhy juxtaposes the histories of Russia and Ukraine, especially the paths they took during the Soviet era and afterward. Through their divergences, he traces Putin’s motivations for waging the war and Ukraine’s fierce resistance to Russia’s invasion.

    Kimmage concludes: “The United States will do what it can to give Ukraine victory. It has a good chance of succeeding in this noble endeavor. If it does succeed, however, it will still have lost the postnational Europe that had previously been the desired end state of Washington’s strategy—one that undergirded the concept of a liberal international order. This situation will force the United States and its allies back toward something akin to containing Moscow, as they did during the Cold War—an approach that will play out mostly in eastern Europe, where the determination and protection of borders have led to countless wars, of which the Russian-Ukrainian war is only the most recent. Plokhy’s extraordinary book reminds readers of this history.”
     
  6. George Krebs

    George Krebs Well-Known Member

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    Spent some time with my Ivy League brother in law and firmly liberal Princeton grad recently. We were discussing Ukraine. He came up with an interesting comparison to the US going to war with Mexico and ultimately taking Texas, California and everything in between because we wanted it.
     
  7. gipper

    gipper Well-Known Member

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    Iran has been supplying Russia with drones to kill Ukrainians. Nice to see we just gave them another 6 billion to help defray manufacturing costs.
     
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  8. BuckeyeT

    BuckeyeT Well-Known Member

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    Dumb is forever....makes no sense. Sounds like they get the $6B for nothing.....we get 5 prisoners back, they get 5 prisoners back plus $6 Billion. Not sure I see the logic......on second thought, pretty sure there is none :confused:
     
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  9. George Krebs

    George Krebs Well-Known Member

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  10. BuckeyeT

    BuckeyeT Well-Known Member

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    I truly don't understand the manufactured animosity coming from the extreme right towards a European democracy for whom we and other allies have provided security assurances and who at present has Russian armored columns and 200,000 Russian troops illegally within her borders, terrorizing her population, committing documented war crimes and intentionally targeting and murdering innocents.....daily. The lure of partisanship taken to extremes is ugly business and does immeasurable harm to this country. Washington warned us in his farewell address and his worst fears are coming to fruition. Were Reagan, Bush (I or II), or the last guy have been the incumbent under similar circumstances, Breitbart and their ilk would be shouting Slava Ukraini from the rooftops far and wide...very transparent and very ugly business
     
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    Last edited: Sep 20, 2023
  11. Bobdawolverweasel

    Bobdawolverweasel Well-Known Member

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    Last edited: Sep 20, 2023
  12. BuckeyeT

    BuckeyeT Well-Known Member

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    I'm always amused when any of the extreme right or left - leaning information sources parody themselves with headline grabbers such as in this case "freedom" when critical of the Ukrainian treatment of the Russian propagandist. We have been the beacon of freedom around the globe for 250 years. When we ourselves were last attacked on our own soil by another nation state we imprisoned 120,000 Japanese-Americans/Nationals - 60,000 of whom were US citizens - in camps here in the US from 1942-1946 for the high crime of looking Japanese. Interesting that Andrew Breitbart identified himself as a "Reagan conservative". The Breitbart positioning these days is far removed from that of a Reagan conservative and I can only imagine what he thinks of the hard right and extreme partisan turn his creation has taken
     
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  13. George Krebs

    George Krebs Well-Known Member

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    You love to take shots at Breitbart, Clearly they are not legitimate in your eyes. Why is that? Because none of the other outlets report many of these stories or bury them deep in the script? If they are reporting garbage, if they are defaming people then why are they not being sued all the time? When CNN got caught fabricating stories they got crushed. How many times has the NY Times been forced to print retractions? Because you don't like the news, you blame the reporter. And it looks like another $24B is heading Ukraine's way which they claim may hold them until the end of this year or about 100 days. The tab now is up to $137B and there is no discernable plan or timetable. At the same time it was revealed that the INTEREST on our $33T national debt now exceeds $700B per YEAR ! And border crossings are increasing monthly.
     
  14. gipper

    gipper Well-Known Member

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    Washington also warned us in his farewell address about getting involved in permanent alliances with foreign governments. Yet here we are being asked to send US treasure to another foreign land because of obligations and treaties. I guess you have to be far right to be angry over inept foreign policy that shouts weakness, invites aggression and then demands that we fund opposition to the very acts we encouraged and in many ways financed.
    And while we're on the subject of George Washington, I see that the leftists in the NYC council are discussing getting rid of statues honoring the guy who left his comfortable home in Va. and spent 12 yrs. leading a ragtag, poorly funded army against the strongest military power in the world. Just when you think that the left couldn't sink any lower, they do.
     
  15. Stu Ryckman

    Stu Ryckman Well-Known Member

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    If some of us believe it’s in our national interest….

    Total defense spending is 2.04 trillion annually. 24 billion would be .012% if I did the math right. Kinda hurried it.
     
  16. Bobdawolverweasel

    Bobdawolverweasel Well-Known Member

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    Our aid to Ukraine amounts to 0.33% of our yearly GNP. There is nobody who suggests that we would be able to fix our infrastructure, strengthen our military, secure our borders, reform our educational institutions etc. with a payment of 0.33% of our yearly GNP.

    What that aid has done is allow a brave but impoverished nation to resist Russian barbarism and severely degrade Russia’s political & social structure and military might to the point that a coup came close to toppling Putin.

    Our aid to Afghanistan in the late 1970’s was a pivotal factor that led to the collapse of the USSR and freedom from Soviet tyranny for peoples in Eastern Europe and Central Asia. If our aid successfully allows Ukraine to free itself from Russian domination, the cost will be a lot less expensive than what we might have to pay if Russia is allowed free reign to do as it wishes throughout the world.
     
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    Last edited: Sep 20, 2023
  17. George Krebs

    George Krebs Well-Known Member

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    Would .33% of p\our yearly GNP allow us to secure our borders? I'll wait.
     
  18. BuckeyeT

    BuckeyeT Well-Known Member

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    There are news and information organizations and there are political organizations and then there are those in-between. Since Andrew Breitbart's death, his creation has morphed hard right away from traditional conservative values into a political organization that cloaks itself in a news and info wrapper. I have a problem with any organization whose aims are largely partisan that seek to achieve it's political goals at the expense of their country and to the benefit of her enemies. There can be no mistaking that abandoning the Ukrainian people and our European allies and letting Putin achieve his illegal expansionist aims through force of arms is beneficial to Putin, Xi and any other authoritarian regime seeking to upend rules-based world order.

    That they feign outrage and prioritize the publication of the detainment of an enemy sympathizer breaking the law in a country currently under siege from the same enemy occupying force rather than the crimes against humanity by a rogue nation that targets civilians, kidnaps their children, attacks and murders innocents on a daily tells you all you need to know. One has to wonder about the motives of such organizations and the extreme right that they cater to when the political aims they seek to encourage are clearly contrary to our national interests and to the clear benefit of our enemies.
     
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    Last edited: Sep 21, 2023
  19. gipper

    gipper Well-Known Member

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    Putin needs money to fund this war. He's using mercenaries and has to purchase ammunition and drones from N. Korea and Iran. He is financing the war with oil money, money greatly increased by the short supply of oil on the world market. What's causing the shortage? What's providing him with money for the war. The crippling of the US oil industry by the climate zealots that are controlling Washington. The stronger we make Putin, the more money we have to ship to Ukraine. That's ********. Pump oil, give Zalinski the weapons he needs to fight an effective offensive war or just stop this continued stalemate won with US money and Ukrainian bodies. We not helping them to win we're helping them to degrade Russia. But like every other crap thrown out by the left "it's only money." (US debt now 32 Trillion and climbing.)
     
  20. BuckeyeT

    BuckeyeT Well-Known Member

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    Once again, false choice, unrelated and no reason we can't and shouldn't do both. The are 42 nations worldwide providing aid to Ukraine. Dedicating a sliver of our national resources and small fraction of our annual military budget to uphold our international obligations, protect our allies and preserve the world order from the expansionist aims of a rogue terrorist nation is money well spent - it is what it's for.

    Consider for a second if you will that the Russians don't have 42 nations contributing to their defense effort and are having to foot the entirety of the bill less the modest support from the new "axis of evil" - the Iranian mullahs, North Koreans and China. The decimation of their economy and destruction of their military capability that we're watching in real time on a daily basis is a material return on investment for the civilized world. Here's a more relevant choice....choose between doing our duty, protecting our allies and the brave Ukrainian people and preserving the world order or casting your lot for the benefit of every rogue nation on the planet. The extreme right has chosen the latter - why I don't know and their motives are a mystery. The best case? Simply for partisan domestic political purposes which is disgusting enough, the worst case? Perhaps ask Putin's puppet....
     
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