8/23 GOP Debate

Discussion in 'Political Discussions' started by BuckeyeT, Aug 24, 2023.

  1. George Krebs

    George Krebs Well-Known Member

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    It's not a false choice when your country is in the decaying shape that ours is in. Drowning in debt, running enormous annual budget deficits, a military depleted and not reaching its annual recruiting needs, culturally and politically divided to a degree not seen since 1860, voluntarily surrendering its own sovereignty through its open borders policy, economically strained, crime ridden and drug addled to new heights. Not to mention led by a man in the throes of dementia and a Congress of aged, incompetent lifer carpetbaggers.

    Given these undeniable circumstances, we should prioritize sending guns, ammo and billions of dollars to Ukraine? Are you serious?
     
  2. BuckeyeT

    BuckeyeT Well-Known Member

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    We're just gonna have to agree to disagree. They are in fact unrelated, a classic false choice. Everyone of those issues were present prior to Feb 24, 2022 and they will be present after the KGB thug and his rag tag bunch of murderous invaders perpetrating crimes against humanity gets sent back to Russia and takes that message back to Xi.

    I'm of the view that one can chew gum and walk at the same time. In reality, any nation state that has ascended to the level of world leadership does in fact have domestic challenges to address as well as international priorities and obligations. Supporting our core values and being on the right side of freedom and self-determination by responding to the invasion of a European democracy by a strategic adversary and providing vital assistance to our most significant strategic alliance at their request is an international priority and a national obligation. At least it has been ever since we've ascended atop of the world stage - post WWI
     
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  3. Bobdawolverweasel

    Bobdawolverweasel Well-Known Member

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    I have a hard time seeing how shifting .3 of 1% of GDP that was sent to Ukraine primarily in the form of surplus military equipment back to the US is going to solve the vast internal issues George cataloged. Since the Great Society legislation from Johnson’s era we have poured billions of aid to the inner cities and billions to battle illegal drug consumption but the crime and drug inferno rages on. I suspect only a profound change in American culture and its values can stop the decline of which George writes. But, the amount we spend now to aid Ukraine as it sheds only its own blood to fight for its independence will seem minuscule if we change course and allow Russia to savage Ukraine and thereafter intimidate the Baltics, Balkans and the rest of Europe to a submissive relationship with a resurgent Russian superpower.
     
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  4. BuckeyeT

    BuckeyeT Well-Known Member

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    Gip, to be frank, I just don't believe you. I believe you to be serious-minded guy who loves this country as I do and is deeply troubled by the our current state. I'm a patriot before partisan, country over party guy. My values and my observations are not colored by the political party I support, but rather my political support is colored by my values and observations. I don't believe for a second that you, an officer of the court (retired), are OK with the current stance of every single leading Republican candidate.....to revisit, that stance is as follows:

    if the ex-President of the United States were convicted in a United States courtroom by a jury of his peers of felony crimes ranging from the betrayal of national secrets to the attempted overthrow of our legally elected government by violent and fraudulent means that they will continue to support his presidency.

    Let's hear that again....they would support and seek to elect, for President of the United States, a man found guilty beyond a reasonable doubt of betraying national secrets and/or attempting to overthrow the government of the United States by violent and fraudulent means. FULL STOP.

    I don't believe you or anyone else here is OK with that. If watching the core values of the party of Lincoln and Reagan disintegrate into the depths of political depravity as this would suggest is not worthy of a rant, I don't know what the hell is. If that's the stance of a party leadership, that's not my party. On a more humorous note, can you imagine how convoluted and bizarre the discussions surrounding the national security clearances and procedures for he and his crack team of advisors. What kind of security clearance do you give to one so convicted our his associates? Imagine the national security discussions, for example, "let's move the nuclear codes off the ballroom stage to the bathroom next to the toilet or should we make sure it's stashed in the bathtub with the shower curtain pulled out of an abundance of caution." Obviously a more secret facility, SCIF now becomes "shower curtain in front".

    Re: the strength -v- Putin. That's some real fairy tale bullsh!t coming from any number of radical right wing echo chambers. Absurd on its face. There is not a single credible, non-partisan observer of international affairs and foreign policy that would hold such a view. Not one, quite the contrary.....his stance -v- Putin is more accurately illustrated by him standing in front of the world press, cuckolding himself and his nation by getting on his hands and knees and publicly fellating the "genius" Putin over the known Russian election interference whilst simultaneously throwing the entirety of our national intelligence apparatus under the bus in the Helsinki debacle. The "genius" was so impressed with the "strength" displayed in Helsinki and elsewhere that his cyber-warfare forces then proceeded to launch the single most extensive cyber attack on our government to date and began their meddling in the 2020 election for good measure. Save that crap for somebody whose definition of being well-informed is to visit multiple right wing echo chambers and news sources rather than just one. You're better than that Gip....
     
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  5. gipper

    gipper Well-Known Member

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    Every event you cited occurred after the election. Apparently all of the illegal activities that occurred before the election was acceptable to you. Unconstitutional eavesdropping, a two year unjustified investigation of a President . Suppression of free speech on social media. Suppression of news reports because of their potential impact on an election which is another form of election interference.I’m sorry I can’t hear your defense of the rule of law it rings hollow.
     
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  6. Bobdawolverweasel

    Bobdawolverweasel Well-Known Member

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    As someone who remembers how Eastern Europe fared under Soviet domination, the thought of willingly allowing a ruthless, autocratic Russia to turn back the clock to regain supremacy in large portions of Europe seems like madness. Ukraine has done an incredible job defying Russia and degrading the power of the Russian military. A weakened, degraded Russia seems a far better environment for freedom and tranquility for humanity than allowing an unrestrained Russia to impose its will on others.
     
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  7. BuckeyeT

    BuckeyeT Well-Known Member

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    I'm at a loss to understand how the timing of ex-President's actions in betrayal of his oath, his country and her people is relevant in determining ones view of a group of presidential candidates who stated for the record, in front of millions of viewers, that they would support a man convicted of felony crimes against his country for President of the United States. That's not a political party, it's a cult, it's disgraceful and, in spite of what you may say here, you know it.

    As for the rest, let me be clear for the record. 1) if there are allegations, investigate them. 2) if the investigation findings warrant a grand jury proceeding, empanel one. 3) If the evidence presented to the grand jury warrants charges, charge them and bring them to trial. 4) if the trial jury's review of the facts borne of evidence and testimony presented are such that they believe the defendant is guilty beyond a reasonable doubt, lock 'em up. Period, end of story, full stop, I don't care if they have an R, D, an I or anything else, lock 'em all up. I'm pretty sure that is how our founders intended it to work.
     
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  8. Bobdawolverweasel

    Bobdawolverweasel Well-Known Member

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    Even though Aaron Burr is now regarded as a malignant figure in American history, his contemporaries acknowledged his military accomplishments during the Revolutionary War and his brilliance as a scholar, legislator and lawyer. And even on his worst day with a mind saturated with Laudanum and rum, he never would have said anything so dishonest, constitutionally illiterate and undemocratic as this:

     
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  9. BuckeyeT

    BuckeyeT Well-Known Member

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    Let's keep in mind that he continues to say this in spite of him knowing, should have known, reasonable people similarly situated would have known and/or had a sacred obligation to determine and know in fact that there was no evidence of fraud material enough to change the election results as had every single one of his predecessors before him. The great threat to our democracy that he and his kind represent is that this would seem, at this point, more a prospective plank of the party platform rather than defense of prior treachery
     
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  10. Bobdawolverweasel

    Bobdawolverweasel Well-Known Member

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    The Founders believe that they needed, when creating the Constitution, to construct a legal architecture that prevented a man to rise to a dictator. They distrusted the more evil aspects of human nature and wanted a society governed by law, not men.

    But, there has been an ongoing battle in our history of people inverting that principle and using the law to rule over and marginalize others. At this stage in our history it seems that those supporting the inversion, in both parties, run the show.
     
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  11. George Krebs

    George Krebs Well-Known Member

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  12. BuckeyeT

    BuckeyeT Well-Known Member

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    I'm assuming this was just an attempt at levity right? Just as a starter, I don't recall seeing Zelensky sending armored columns into neighboring countries. Breitbart? OK, but we all know that they don't even try to be a news organization. But that's ok, no matter. By way of comparison, even Putin himself would be enraged at the comparative insult, that's bush league sh!t for the KGB thug

    Russia's bombing of maternity and children's hospital an 'atrocity,' Zelensky says | CNN
    Ukraine marks grim Bucha anniversary, calls for justice
    International court issues war crimes warrant for Putin

    I honestly don't see the benefit to the extreme right in their transparent attempts to demonize Zelensky for political purposes. Seems to me that it does more harm than good, certainly among independents. Their base is insufficient to put them back in power, they need the center to achieve their aims....or maybe it's just as simple as Breitbart needing to Breitbart and I'm over analyzing things. I dunno...
     
    Last edited: Aug 28, 2023
  13. gipper

    gipper Well-Known Member

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    I read responses and I throw my hands up. Don't like what's reported throw mud on the news organization and then quote CNN. If someone questions sending billions to one non democracy because it's being invaded by another they're immediately part of "the extreme right." That's crap. That's leftist ********. Why not throw in a MAGA or two?
     
  14. Bobdawolverweasel

    Bobdawolverweasel Well-Known Member

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    As I mentioned in the previous post, Ukraine is one of the poorest countries in Europe. To expect that they can solely fund their elections when they are involved in a life and death struggle with a superpower who invaded their country is obtuse considering (1) that they need to fund their military to survive and (2) the elections would also involve Ukrainian citizens living in EU countries who fled after the invasion. Zelensky’s remarks dealt largely with having the EU fund voting facilities in these countries.

    The banned parties were those with affiliations with Russia. During the Soviet era, a large number of Russians were moved to Ukraine in part to repopulate the area after Stalin murdered millions of Ukrainians by a terror induced famine. That Zelensky would choose to suppress the activities of fifth columnists trying to undermine Ukrainian independence seems logical and similar to the actions engaged in by Lincoln during the civil war against Confederate sympathizers living in the North. In fact Z’s actions seem far less severe than Roosevelt’s placing American citizens of Japanese ancestry in internment camps.

    To equate Zelensky with Putin is obscene. This link provides but a small taste of horror inflicted upon civilians by Russian war criminals

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2022/04/06/bucha-barbarism-atrocities-russian-soldiers/

    I could spend hours providing links to other atrocities done by Russians in Ukraine, Syria, and Chechnya and indeed to their own citizens. Putin’s regime are amoral criminals and share nothing in common with Zelensky who was democratically elected and trying to free his country from the savagery and corrupt rot that is Russia.
     
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  15. BuckeyeT

    BuckeyeT Well-Known Member

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    Speaking of Stalin, let's not forget the US providing hundreds of $billions (current $) of arms and supplies to Stalin’s Red Army when they were locked in armed conflict together with US allies after enemy armored columns rolled through Russia.

    Gip, don't like CNN or AP, feel free to insert your own source for evidence of Putin’s atrocities. You'll have a veritable plethora of credible news organizations from which to choose. As Bobda pointed out, any effort to equate Zelensky with Putin is an obscenity
     
  16. Scott88

    Scott88 Well-Known Member

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    I don't question anyone's motives in supporting Ukraine against Russia, that's a no brainer.
    BUT... where is the line guys?
    I'm still waiting to hear:
    Are you ready to commit American troops?
     
  17. George Krebs

    George Krebs Well-Known Member

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    Of course they're ready to commit American troops, Scott. These guys are all in on Ukraine. When this shitshow starts going sideways and we are already $100 Billion in then we have to send the boys in to prove we were right.
     
  18. George Krebs

    George Krebs Well-Known Member

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    You gave me exactly the response I was expecting. It's not your News source so it must be wrong. Well, if its wrong I'm sure they will be challenged and forced to retract. P.T. Barnum had you in mind....
     
  19. BuckeyeT

    BuckeyeT Well-Known Member

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    I can't see any troop commitments unless the KGB thug attacks a NATO member country at which point we are duty-bound and obligated by treaty. Putin may be guilty of crimes against humanity and a war criminal but he wants to stay in power and knows that would result in the destruction of his military and likely a bullet in his head from a coalition of pissed off oligarchs in conjunction with the Russian General staff and security apparatus, That dumba$s has his hands full with Ukraine, motivated NATO forces is a whole different animal...nobody knows that more than Putin. Xi will remind him for good measure
     
  20. Bobdawolverweasel

    Bobdawolverweasel Well-Known Member

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    Not sure about it being no brained Scott as 55% of the American public, per a recent CNN poll, supports no additional funding for Ukraine. My guess is that the majority thinks Ukraine now needs to cut the best deal it can just as Prygorzin cut the best deal he could with Putin.

    Ukraine has not asked us for troops and I do not support sending troops although the Russians did provide troops to both the North Koreans and North Vietnamese. I do support sending more expanded military aid such as long range missiles as France and the UK did and F 16s as the Netherlands has done.

    Agree with Terry’s points re NATO.