The three Rs are no longer required for Oregon HS graduates

Discussion in 'Political Discussions' started by WSU1996kesley, Aug 10, 2021.

  1. WSU1996kesley

    WSU1996kesley Well-Known Member

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    Editorial: Bill downgrading Oregon diplomas deserves a veto

    Oregon students shouldn’t have to prove they can write or do math to get a diploma, lawmakers decide

    This article is from June, and has already been signed.
     
  2. Terry O'Keefe

    Terry O'Keefe Well-Known Member Administrator

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    I don't get it, I know a lot of this changed all over the country last year because of Covid, many if not most colleges ditched all the standardized tests, SAT and ACT, as part of their admissions. But that's a different thing.

    I know that for quite a while some have said that standardized tests are discriminatory because minorities don't do as well on them. The SAT people made changes to try and eliminate cultural bias in their tests. I assume that this legislation has its roots in that very same issue, but I don't know.

    I know that at one time there was a test Texas HS students had to do the same thing and it was controversial, teachers said it inhibited their ability to teach and that they were forced to teach their students to pass the test. The School Districts didn't like it when they had students fail these tests and not be able to graduate. Made them look bad, and I think many of those affected were minority students.

    Personally, I think that if you've passed all the required courses to graduate that they should give you a diploma. I can see the value of these tests as tools to see how well schools are doing or not doing but it shouldn't be the one last factor for getting the diploma. From the State's point of view I guess they might feel that if the students had no skin in the game that they wouldn't even try and the results might be worthless in evaluation of the schools.
     
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  3. WSU1996kesley

    WSU1996kesley Well-Known Member

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    I guess it depends on what you thing a HS diploma is supposed to indicate. Is a HS diploma an indication that the graduate successfully learned the requisite information, or that they attended for a certain length of time?

    Certain job reqs don't require the ability to read, write, or do basic arithmetic. In that case, I wouldn't care if an applicant had a diploma or not.

    Certain job reqs do require the ability to read (instructions, O&M manuals, emails, etc.). In that case, if the applicant has a diploma, I used to be able to assume that the individual could read.

    Certain job reqs do require the ability to write.

    Certain job reqs do require the ability to do basic arithmetic.

    If a graduate cannot pass basic reading, writing, and arithmetic tests, are they going to be able to gain access to jobs that require it? Employers that require these skills are starting to test candidates to ensure they have these skills, where a diploma should already indicate those skills have been verified. If graduates cannot perform these basic functions, and their careers do not require those basic abilities, why would they need a diploma? As a participation trophy?
     
  4. Terry O'Keefe

    Terry O'Keefe Well-Known Member Administrator

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    When you graduated from Wash State did you have to pass an exit test showing your proficiency in anything? You took the required courses, you passed the required courses, they gave you a diploma.

    As I said I can see the value of the test as a tool to evaluate things. I just think if an educational institution sets out the criteria for graduation, earning a certificate, etc and you complete them you should get your certificate/diploma.
     
  5. Terry O'Keefe

    Terry O'Keefe Well-Known Member Administrator

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    As an aside, I've hired a lot of people in my 50 years of practice. I don't think I've ever had an applicant who didn't fill in that they graduated from HS, but I didn't ask or care if they had passed a post-graduation test confirming their abilities. I have colleagues who did have their applicants take a test to evaluate these things, they are available if you choose to use them.

    I haven't made many mistakes in hiring over those 50 years, a few, but not many. I think many employers who are hiring high school graduates might do the same as I did, go a lot off of their gut feel during the interview, recommendations, previous employment etc. They can make having a HS diploma a requirement for even applying just as employers can make having a college degree a criterion for even applying.
     
  6. WSU1996kesley

    WSU1996kesley Well-Known Member

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    One would hope that a person that has applied to college has learned how to read, write, and do basic arithmetic. Accreditation helps ensure the course materials, and the testing regimen, is sufficient to put the institution's name on a degree proffered to their graduates. Not doing so devalues the degree proffered and attained.

    A HS diploma is not equivalent to a college degree. Your argument seems to be that the coursework completed while in HS proves the student has learned those basic skills. Please correct me if I've misstated your position. If I have stated it correctly, I disagree. The fact that students fail this basic test at the end of their HS careers is proof enough that the skill has not been learned through the course of their scholastic career. Since this occurs, one can only wonder why they were continually passed on by their teachers. Their may be a better evaluation tool out their, and maybe it needs to be performed before the student even gets into HS, but my opinion is that reading, writing, and basic arithmetic are some of the skills required for a basic HS diploma.
     
  7. Terry O'Keefe

    Terry O'Keefe Well-Known Member Administrator

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    Those are all good points. As far as college, for a place like Texas, Wash State, Texas A&M, Tenn, Michigan, Florida, Notre Dame, all SkyBox members colleges your assumption is valid, but what about the many community colleges across the country that accept all who have a HS diploma or the equivalent. Can you make that same assumption?

    I'm not against the test per se, just that it be mandatory for receiving the diploma. As I said they have value in determining how schools are doing with educating their students. Private schools all across the country don't tie a test to the diploma. You might say that well private schools have better students and so don't need it, but there are more than a few who are not elite schools and are there to serve different populations and take all that apply.

    There was a time when in most states you didn't have to go to Law School to take the bar and qualify to practice law. Just take the bar and pass. If the test is the ultimate determining factor in your HS diploma, maybe you should be able to just take the test at any point in your HS career and if you pass, they award you the diploma!! Just kidding.

    I do think that what makes this act in Oregon so headline catching is that it gets phrased like Oregon has stopped teaching reading writing and math, I don't think that is what they are doing. I think Oregon students still have to take and pass the requisite courses to qualify for a HS diploma.
     
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  8. Scott88

    Scott88 Well-Known Member

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    Terry, did you miss this line:

     
  9. Terry O'Keefe

    Terry O'Keefe Well-Known Member Administrator

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    No, I saw that, not sure though what portfolio does to confirm anything, it would seem like something that would/could be abused by kids having somebody help them significantly or maybe even do it for them. To be clear I like the tests as a tool for evaluating the schools/teachers.

    Question: How many of you guys had to prove your proficiency in Reading/writing/arithmetic before your HS gave you your diploma that you qualified for by taking and passing all the required courses?

    I didn't have to take any proficiency test when I graduated from HS. When did these become common place? I took the SAT but that was just because Texas required it as part of the admissions process.

    Also I didn't have to do anything to prove I was qualified to receive my DDS, Now if I wanted to actually practice in any state I had to take a National Board and a State Board practical exam, but failing those had nothing to do with my receiving my DDS.
     
  10. Sid

    Sid Well-Known Member

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    This school year's sophomores, who will be seniors in the school year 2023-24, experienced their entire 2020-21 school year in remote learning because of the pandemic . Same for this school year's juniors and seniors. Could it be that because of that major bump in in the road of their high school careers, the legislature wants to give those 3 years' students a break at graduation, then return to the past practice? I guess you'd have to ask the legislators.

    Other than that, I agree with Terry.
     
  11. gipper

    gipper Well-Known Member

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    I’m on the road so only a few comments
    When we went to school it was assumed that you could read,write and do math after eight years of primary education. You needed those skills to learn history and algebra.
    In NYC we had to apply to Catholic high schools.we had to take a standardized test and they reviewed your transcript.
    In every subject from French to Physics we had to take a state Regents proficiency test. It was important to get a Regents diploma. That’s right we were awarded a diploma not given a certificate of participation.
    If Oregon high school seniors can’t read write or do math because of one year interrupted by COVID, their educational system is hopelessly broken.