Sid made a great point that "Hey Guys" this topic (The one currently in place) is not a political ideology viewpoint but one that allows us to share the reality of what just happened... I threw this up because I appreciate the argument both sides bring to the table, both Dave and Gipper among others share what's on their heart and it doesn't matter what others may think, I kind of enjoy the rawness of that part of discussion. Couple things, I own guns and I mean lots of guns, since I've been in high school a gun was hanging in the rear window, it was accepted back then. I have a concealed carry permit as does every member of my family. This doesn't mean I carry, but I want to be legal in all aspects. Every day of the week 365 days of the year I have at least 5 firearms within reach of my vehicle with ammunition to accompany each firearm. (This being said I have never heard of a bump stock until this week, makes your firearm mimic a fully auto as in the recent shooting, guess I never needed one.) It's been that way since I was 16, I'm now 53. My father a policeman naturally had his side piece and us kids, there were three of us knew better than to ever come close to his firearm. Yeah I live a very rural life, I think it's a quality of life I am blessed with, no traffic, no crowds and the daily existence without anyone there to question how I live my life. I cannot think of a better way to live ones life but that's an opinion. This does not make me lacking in intelligence or ignorant in spite of some of my previous post...We actually read, go to school, attend universities and are successful in rural areas no matter what the media and others portray. ' As mentioned having a firearm within 5 feet at all times is as common as putting your pants on, to be honest in my world it's one and the same. So when anyone mentions restricting this daily item I take for granted it makes me stop and listen. Unfortunately it seems some people are not responsible enough to enjoy such freedom without injuring themselves or others. Most is probably ignorance because a lack of education or awareness and then others either are of the criminal sect or just want to see the world burn and take as many with it as they can. For me these are the ones who are lost and have only evil at heart, no laws or restrictions will stop their quest to hurt others, only the method may change, bomb an airplane, drive a truck over innocents etc.... How do we as a society prevent this....Do we in simple terms take away all pointy objects, because this is what more gun restrictions are. Remove all big trucks from the road, remove knives, baseball bats, guns, and anything else that harms innocents. Honestly what is the answer and do we believe upon doing whatever action that evil intentions will not use another method... Dave mentioned he is too tired to argue anymore, I totally understand this. So what is the answer to preventing needless deaths of innocents that tears our hearts apart. Surely we are smart enough to figure out a solution or is this as I had mentioned in the previous topic inherent to being human...
I can't imagine that mental health will not play a part of this when it all boils down to brass tacks.
Solid post Ralph.... you show levity and reason. Improved mental health care needs to be a huge part of the resolution of this worsening problem. You say people with these issues can kill in many different ways but let's face it... acquiring firearm weapons of destruction is much easier and pulling a trigger is a lot easier than making or implementing other means of killing. It also helps when so many vehemently defend a crazy person's right to own these weapons. Call it a sort of validation for their lethal planning and motivation.
How is it that someone who has never been a gun owner can suddenly go about acquiring more than 50 multiple round weapons and no one notices or cares to check in to it? The answer is because the right to gun ownership is so sacred for this individual to be able to do so to the conservative right that they don't care to question it and they get angry if anyone wants to question it and they elect legislators who also propose to feel that way about it. Hence.... no change is in the offing. Fire away.
Ralph I never heard of a bump stock before this week either and I'd support any legislation that would outlaw them. I notice that a company named Slide Fire makes them and their website is currently down (probably due to a large volume of orders.) I can't even to begin to imagine the litigation that is going to arise from this tragedy. Mandalay Bay, the concert promoters, the killer, and dozens of others will be engulfed in the suits. If the bump stock that was used by Paddock was commercially made, that company is going to be sued out of existence. I hope that the had a large liability policy but it won't be nearly enough.
The more information that comes out (And good Lord at the mass amounts of stuff coming out) it seems that mental health may be the catalyst. I am in no position to judge our current mental health care in the US but it does seem to be very low on the scale of priorities. This and the fact mental health spending is almost non existent and has been gutted for the past twenty years from what I've read. Dave I don't have an answer to a more restrictive process, it probably does start with first improving the country's mental health care but we can't even agree upon our primary health care. And we all know that govt doesn't do anything small or with efficiency so I can imagine this bloated mega sector evaluating every one who wants to buy their kid a BB gun. When I purchase a firearm there is a background check with a waiting period, I'm assuming my data is run through a National FBI database, maybe others can expound on this more than myself. As a concealed permit holder I've been finger printed, taken a course where we are tested, qualified by a certified expert and then photographed. I'm not sure how much else can be expected or what it would take. That being said there is argument that even this is too far reaching as it's part of our birthright as citizens but that's a different topic for a different day. We are looking for solutions at this point and open to all ideas to prevent future acts against humanity if that's even a possibility. I'm not sold yet that it truly is...
Gipper my one foggy brain cell hasn't even thought about the amount of future litigation we are looking at. As you mentioned the process in that Dept hasn't even begun yet...
Dave's world is so simple... WRONG. The problem is not the defense of crazy people's right to buy or own a weapon. What a ludicrous statement, no one does that. There are many laws restricting unstable folks from buying guns. The problem is getting someone classified that way to show up on a background check. People's rights are so heavily protected (not a bad thing in and of itself) that an individual has to either totally go off the deep end of crazy, or self commit themselves to be on a restriction list. Improved mental health systems could help here, but not necessarily solve the problem. In a free society, you are not guilty of anything until you ACT. BTW... while I grew up around guns, I never owned more than a 22 rifle until I was in my 40's. Then I bought both handguns and rifles (along with... <gasp> higher than 10 rd capacity mags!). By Dave's reasoning I should have the black helicopters circling my house, and my neighbors should be VERY afraid... :roll:
I have been a gun owner most of my life and an avid target/trap shooter (though not a hunter...nothing against hunting, I just don't do it). I have never heard of a bump stock. If I had I probably would not have thought it to be a terrible thing because it would seem to render the firearm to be very inaccurate and practically useless. Which doesn't matter when you are aiming at a crowd of 20,000. Who would have thought or predicted that anyone would take the time to set up what this man planned and have the luck and whatever else it takes to pull it off? I don't even really blame Obama's ATF for deciding to allow them...they apparently put some thought into it and debated it at length and decided that ACCORDING TO THE LAW as written, they were legal...and they probably were right. The ATF doesn't write the laws...congress does. Trying to pin this back on Obama (which some are trying to do) is laughable...he'd outlaw squirt guns if given the chance. Ah, hindsight...I fully support legislation to outlaw these things. There are so many aspects of this tragedy that just don't make sense to me. How can a person be that deranged and NOBODY has a CLUE that he is in any way unbalanced or has some type of axe to grind. How could he set all that up without any help? How can he do all those alterations to a hotel suite and hallway with nobody suspecting? I'm not a conspiracy theorist...but I just don't think we are getting the whole story. Meanwhile...there is this; https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/i-used-to-think-gun-control-was-the-answer-my-research-told-me-otherwise/2017/10/03/d33edca6-a851-11e7-92d1-58c702d2d975_story.html?undefined&utm_term=.868c4fbf4026
"The problem is not the defense of crazy people's right to buy or own a weapon. What a ludicrous statement, no one does that. There are many laws restricting unstable folks from buying guns" But there is no effective monitoring or enforcement of laws and restrictions to crazy people legally acquiring these weapons because of the conservative outcry that someone's gun rights will be compromised. Meanwhile a murderous lunatic accumulates over 50 weapons into his hotel room legally because who would dare want to violate his gun rights?
I think we have moved beyond partisan politics and who to blame in this, the real question evidently is how do we as a country identify "crazy people"...Dave this may come as a shock to some on the left but those of us who handle firearms may just have a tad more respect and understanding of the inherent dangers associated with them so the last thing we want is a crazy person having access to them either... And I'm fairly sure that if anyone who "dared to care" which is about everyone breathing that day would have mentioned something about Joe Blow walking up the stairs with 50 guns. I'll say it again, or repeat what Scott already mentioned, there are many, many laws restricting unstable folks from buying guns. The question is getting someone classified as crazy to show up on the background check. We as Americans are protected more than any other society and unless he or she admits themselves for help or is obviously "Batshit Crazy" there is absolutely no way to identify the problem.... Get over the long standing vice that gun owners are willing to allow this to happen as long as they have access to purchase, this goes to depths we may not want to know about as a country....We may have more crazy politicians than gun owners, housewives, neighbors, internet posters etc....Can you say can of worms....
Ralph it has been stated on this site several times in the past that because you couldn't readily tell who shouldn't have guns that it may tread upon innocent gun ower wannabes to enact more stringent checks etc so therefore....more effective checks and controls were a bad idea. I say better a few innocents cannot get 50 guns rather than one murderous asshole gets 50 guns.
Dave my friend I'm not going to lie, I cannot identify crazy or those not worthy of freedoms we take for granted. if you know please tell me, how does one know who can drive a vehicle, hop in a Semi truck, buy a baseball bat without ill intent or buy steak knives that will not stab another person. Yeah I realize your definitely not talking about these things, it's guns. Gun owners have been repeating for some time how is this going to be established and how far does it go. It has been interpreted along the way and others feel that these Neanderthal gun owners have no heart and do not care..If we go on what has been established from govt sectors in history we need to be very cautious as our established freedoms are not a major concern to those who enforce. Your metaphor is interesting, so is it better that 50 people are not able to have freedoms expected as Americans such as free speech or taxation without representation to control the one person. How does this differ in civil rights than others....How far should this go, you have to realize this is not going to only be a gun issue, this is well beyond that. As we agree to sacrifice what we take for granted it involves the freedom of driving to and fro from work, who knows maybe you or I need to be stopped and checked out along the way.... We may both be thinking inconsistent to what is currently acceptable at the moment and need to be interrogated. My comment to you is the road to this current state has not been pleasant, let's acknowledge that part. It's time to rectify or address the situation and try to stop blaming what has been said and offer real ideas and get over the finger pointing. How do we as American citizens not give up rights taken for granted in the quest to check the mental health of every citizen who may be seeking a right that is already approved by the country and the courts...I'll say it again, this is not an easy task and I'm not sure it is probable...
I heard a forensic psychiatrist interviewed yesterday. He thought that the shooter may have had Asperger's syndrome. It would have explained his hours of video poker and standoffish behavior with his neighbors. Interesting theory if nothing else.
It would make sense including the higher than average IQ that seems to be consistent with the shooter...So many things not discovered yet in this...