I am an admirer of history of all kinds but truly an amateur in that respect but I do read and explore all the aspects from each angle of a topic if possible. This blood letting on all things representing Southern after the horrific attack on the Charleston church has moved into hysteria. Not only has every politician with a camera in their face shook a fist at the audacity to fly a flag with stars and bars but every retail store has responded in like kind. Google was even censoring searches for the confederate flag yesterday until people complained and even listened to one ogre argue that Gone with the Wind should be banned because of its positive representation of the South. Their is currently agendas to have five more states including Florida change their flags that have representation of the civil war south in them. Names of roads and monuments are being attacked to be changed. And since I get the news stations from Ft. Myers in "Lee" County Florida there is an uproar of a portrait of Robert E Lee that has sat behind the local commissioners since Noah built the ark. Where does this end??? Where does it go??? Does our society in its attempt to achieve Utopia censor any and all things that don't fit into the box they are currently standing on. I am a Floridian first before an American, sorry but that's how I think and feel. I have always questioned my personal motives in this and feelings and realize it doesn't blend with the conformity to create a homogenous national identity. But I have concluded the nations leaders are manipulative oligarchs and don't see much chance for change in this. I recently visited the American History museum at the Smithsonian and enjoyed myself. From the top hat Lincoln was wearing when he was killed at Ford theater to the display of George Washington's coat he wore for a portrait it was all there. As I visited and read the facts and figures one interesting highlight was only 3.5% of all Southerners in fact owned slaves, matter of fact most did not even own a pair of shoes. History taught today reflects a demented Southern culture that fought in the civil war to uphold slavery. It does not mention the criteria of taxation, and misrepresentation among other issues that pushed the nation into war. My wife's ancestor fought in the civil war for Alabama, marched home and bathed in the local creek where he burned his uniform full of fleas and lice and went back to farming. My last name is Chamberlain, I am related to a certain Joshua Chamberlain who won the medal of honor who was given the honor of commanding the Union troops at the surrender ceremony for the infantry of Robert E. Lee's Army at Appomattox Court House. I am in part as we all are a piece of the puzzle from both sides from that horrible conflict. Many men died for something as simple as the flag or banner they were gathered under. It's a shame that we as a nation can easily discard and ignore all the blood shed 150 years later with not much thought or care.
Yeah, the Stars and Bars has been a flash point for most of my lifetime. I think states should have taken it down a long time ago. It was not a tradition for the State Capitol of So.Carolina till 1960 when they flew for some Civil War event and never took it down. Take it down, don't put it on state letterhead or don't sell it on license plates and other stuff. But it's not stopping there, there is a big movement to basically wipe the Civil War from the face of the earth. Statues of Confederate Generals/Officers and Politicians are going to be under attack to have them removed. We have a Robt. E. Lee HS here in Houston, somebody is going to object and demand it be renamed. We have a big statue of Dick Dowling a Texas "hero' of the confederacy in our biggest park, it's under attack. They have a street named after him, that interestingly enough is in a black neighborhood. I see that they are taking the flag off the "General Lee" from the Dukes of Hazzard. If they are being true to the cause they'll refuse to call it the General Lee anymore as well. Probably should repaint it blue and call it the General Sherman!
I've always been a history buff and have read much on the Civil War. Of all the stories of the conflict the most fascinating to me is the battle for Little Roundtop and the heroic stand made by Col. Chamberlain and his troops. Out of ammunition, rather than surrender this critical position, he lead a bayonet charge that routed the attacking Confederate troops. The Medal of Honor was well deserved. Which leads me to the most infuriating part of recent developments. If I see one more college professor rant about white privilege or a culture of racism I'm going to puke. These assholes remember that at one time there was slavery in this country but the somehow forget how slavery ended. White males by the tens of thousands died at places like Chancellorsville, Fredericksburg, Antietum, and Manassas. Slavery was washed away by the blood of many brave young white men who never owned slaves. And while we're at it, who was suffering during the winter in Valley Forge. Who marched barefoot through the snow to fight the battle of Trenton. Who spent nearly a decade with few supplies, clothing and pay to win independence for this country? It's the same people who now are under assault by the faux victims of today's American society. No wonder schools today don't teach properly about American history. It doesn't fit their agenda.
I was listening to some lib on Bill O'Reily the other night and she was trying to say that America hasn't done enough to atone for slavery. Bill went ballistic on her. She never could articulate what else America needs to do to atone for Slavery but we haven't done it.
They'll keep throwing out the guilt card as long as so many buy it. We see white libs that adopt affirmative action. They pass laws that give some victims more redress than others and call them "hate crimes." We even had some woman who bought the guilt trip so hard that she began to believe that she was black.
I don't have a problem with white guilt myself. I am sorry that slavery occurred but it was almost a century before I came along. I had nothing to do with it and feel no remorse for it whatsoever. Most of these race baiting panhandlers have no idea of history; they are just mouthing words, begging. I also don't care one way or another about the Stars and Bars. To me, it is a state decision and whatever they decide is OK with me. I was at a Toby Keith concert in Holmdel, NJ two summers ago. If there weren't at least 100 S&B flags flying in the parking lot I would eat my hat.
The Smithonian did a great presentation on the battle for Little Bighorn and the battle that unfolded, the key item in the battle was that the Confederates never thought in a million years that anyone would lead a bayonet attack towards them. Terry mentioned Sherman earlier and I had to laugh at my wife the other day as we visited the Smithsonian. My wife a quiet woman (If that's actually possible) life's dream was to visit the museum and was as giddy as a school girl to be there. She is also an avid genealogist who has obtained a lot of information on her ancestry. As we walked by the area pertaining to Sherman she voiced "you bastard" and kept on walking. Being stunned at this outburst and laughing as well asked what's up with that, she said he's the reason why I cannot go any deeper into one line of her families ancestry. Sherman burned down everything as he marched south including not only houses, barns and the towns but the records in those towns that housed the information on her family, preventing her in the modern era from digging deeper..... Lol, no gents the war is not over I tell ya......
Some quick notes: - Little Round Top; not Little Big Horn - No Confederate ever called it the "Stars and Bars." They called it the "Southern Cross." - General Sherman was the father of LSU and married to a girl from South Bend, Indiana. His papers are at Notre Dame.
I love the discussion, guys. I am not nearly as well versed, partly because I spent most of my formative years in the North (Montana) which had no dog in the hunt, as the rest of you wise lads and love to hear more old un's pass along their insights. Thank you.
Apple has kicked out all games where the Stars/Bars/Southern Cross flag is displayed. I do think however you can still get WWII games where the Swastika is shown.
Many modern politicians still use the Confederate battle flag when they run in the southern states. BTW- no one has mentioned the flag at the statehouse in Arkansas. That was hoisted up by then Governor Bill Clinton and his northern wife...
Well here's the latest efforts to achieve a homogenous national identity: Memphis Mayor A.C. Wharton wants to dig up the bodies of Confederate General Nathan Bedford Forrest and his wife and remove them from a city park in the latest and perhaps most despicable example of the anti-Southern cleansing spreading across the nation. “Which African-American wants to have a picnic in the shadow of Nathan Bedford Forrest?” Wharton said in a Thursday press briefing. In addition to desecrating the graves, Wharton wants to tear down a massive statue honoring the Confederate general who was involved in organizing the Ku Klux Klan. The bodies of Forrest and his wife would be relocated to a cemetery. And Gettysburg Visitor Center removes confederate flags. Evidently the North fought itself 150 years ago.....
Notice that these assholes like this mayor want to dig up the bodies of generals. How about the politicians who led their states in secession? The generals had their asses on the line fighting for "the cause." Unbelievable.
:roll: What's going on here is that the Democratic Party is trying to erase their role in all of this. They are the party of slavery, the Confederate States of America, Black Codes, Jim Crow laws, the Trail of Tears, the removal of the Japanese Americans in WWII, racial segregation, even in the Army and Navy and on and on and on... It was the Republican Party which put an end to all that nonsense, and they're trying to erase that history too. This game is as old as Stalin. When history is against you...you simply rewrite the history books. We'll be seeing doctored photographs next. BTW- are they going to dig up my great-grandfather too? My American great-grandfather was Maj. William N. Portis, 1st Arkansas Cavalry, CSA. He and his brother Lt. James Portis also fought in the 3rd Arkansas Cavalry when the 1st Arkansas ran out of men. They fought from Shiloh to the surrender of Gen. Dick Taylor at the end of the war. Am I supposed to be ashamed of them? Nah. Being a great-grandfather myself, I understand that times change and so do causes and perceptions. What doesn't change are principles and the courage to defend them. In the end, even the Stalinists couldn't keep the illusion going, and all the millions of doctored photos and murdered people couldn't change the facts.
:idea: :arrow: re: Gen. Nathan B. Forrest When he went off to war, Nathan Bedford Forrest asked his slaves if any wanted to join him and fight for the honor of the south. Thirty-three men volunteered and fought with him through the entire war. Only one ran away to join the Union, while the other 32 stayed loyal... (Vacationers alert! Go to the Old Courthouse at Vicksburg, Mississippi!) After the war, Union soldiers were getting drunk at a bar in Vicksburg. They were running their mouths about how "overrated" Gen. Forrest had been. They said that his nickname, "The Wizard of the Saddle" was just nonsense and that he hadn't even been a good soldier. The black fellow drinking next to them listened quietly, put down his drink, drew his revolver and shot the loud-mouth to death. He didn't even mention that he grew up with NB Forrest; fought beside NB Forrest; and was Forrest's best friend... The murder trial took place at the Old Courthouse, which still has cannon ball holes in its steeple. The all-white jury didn't take long to find the defendant "Not Guilty" of the crime. It was the ONLY time in the last 150 years that an all-white jury found a black man not guilty of murdering a white man. Such was the respect that southerners, black and white, had for Nathan Bedford Forrest while he was alive...
I grew up in the south. Our schools were named after Confederate leaders such as Jefferson Davis and my mother attended Robert E. Lee High School as did the band members of Lynyrd Skynyrd. IT was a deep south heritage that I inherited and grew up surrounded by. Kinda hard to just let that go. I guess Italians should just give up pasta, cannolis and mobstering. :wink: I should mention also that the first time I ever saw Lynyrd Skynyrd play a live concert was in the Nathan Beford Forrest High school gymnasium for a cool $2.00 charge. It was just before they hit the big time with their first album and I was blown away by their concert finale.... a song I had never heard ever before..... Free Bird.
:idea: Rewriting history is never a productive exercise. The whole idea of studying history is to learn from past experience.
It seems the prevailing attitude has been that if we remove any and all vestiges pertaining to the old South it will go away, and maybe it will eventually but your explanation of growing up tells me that it will be a long time in the making.... Cool story on Lynyrd Skynyrd, $2.00 huh....
I see one of the many new efforts in removing southern history is to remove the confederate generals from Stone Mountain. As I type this I am reminded it is not only southern history but American history people want removed.
$2.00 is right Ralph.... still a lot in 1973 for a band not many had heard of. It wasn't two months later however that they released their first album and instantly almost the whole planet knew the song "Free Bird". This of course was the original members of Skynyrd that I saw.... before the plane crash complete with lead singer Ronnie Van Zant. Deep south heritage to me is not the hate.... that part was and should be exorcised from any reasonable human being but the history and the pride and the old south virtues are still a part of those of us who lived it. When we studied Civil War history in school we identified much more readily with Lee than we did Grant. Racism is not acceptable in any form... and has not been for a long time in the south thankfully. The courage and pain from those in the civil rights movements in the 60s from LBJ to MLK helped to alleviate much of that old school racism that was rampant in the south. I would like to think that the southern heritage I speak of as it relates to the flag is much much more than racism and mistreatment.