After the 14th round of the "Thrilla in Manilla", Angelo Dundee and Drew "Bundini" Brown were frantically trying to motivate Ali, who said he couldn't continue the fight in the 100+ degree heat of the Phillipines, and wanted Angelo to cut his gloves off. In the opposite corner, Frazier, both eyes swollen to the point of no vision, nose and mouth bleeding, still had the intention of getting up off the stool and finishing the fight. He wasn't allowed to do so as Eddie Futch told him that it's over, I can't let you go back out there. In another fight, Liver Cancer kept Smokin' Joe from answering the bell again. I'm sure he looked death in the eye in that final round and said "C'mon, to the bell baby". RIP Champ.
"Down goes Frazier" for the final time. He was a warrior. The three fights he had with Ali were perhaps the high point of professional boxing. I don't recall a more anticipated fight than their first one when both entered the ring as undefeated heavyweight champions. What I remember most about that fight was that I lost a bet with Mary and had to do the dishes for a month.
I'll never forget how I felt about both of them back in the early-mid 60s, when they both rose to the top of their weight class. Smokin' Joe was tough as nails and quiet about it. Ali, then Cassius Clay, was loud and boastful. He also was fluid and quick as a cat in the ring. I had never before in my life had witnessed behavior like Clay's among professional athletes, and I did not like it. I did not think it was right for an athlete in any sport to act like that. I sided with Smokin' Joe and did not like Clay. As their careers progressed to historic heights, I softened my feelings about Clay/Ali, but Smokn' Joe always was my favorite, even in defeat. RIP
Several years ago I flew home from Myrtle Beach on a cold Sunday evening to Newark. The terminal was practically deserted as I walked down the long stretch to ward the baggage carousel. A large figure was walking toward me and he had a soda in his left hand and was shaking terribly. As he emerged from the shadows I was face to face with Ali, all by himself. I just instinctlively blurted out "Hi Champ" and he stopped and looked right at me and smiled and gave me a weak wave. We both continued on. At moments like that you realize that these are just people who were manipulated in many cases by handlers for profit. Joe Frazier was a great champ who generally handled himself with dignity. Each without the other would have never reached the heights they achieved. I think they knew that.
Ali's ringside physician, Dr. Ferdie Pacheko, pleaded with Ali to retire after the 3rd fight with Frazier. After that, beatings from Norton (III), Young, Shavers, Spinks, Holmes, Berbick obviously took their toll. I'm not sure that the handlers/associates were wholly to blame. Ali had a invincible image of himself, especially after beating Foreman.
Ive never really been into boxing as ive viewed it as a dirty sport since getting old enough to really pay attention. Ive watched some old time fights (ali, frazier, foreman, leonard) and respect the actual boxing abilities of the legends, but other than that, cant get into it. Was it different back in the day? Or has it always been a scum pond?
Boxing itself is a heckuva lot more civilized than the UFC crap that is popular with the cult crowd. How do you justify jumping on a guy when he's lying on the ground and pummeling him? It's crap.
The Mafia had a huge say back in the 30, 40's and 50's as i understand the history. The 40's had The Brown Bomber, Jake LaMotta, Jersey Joe, Sugar Ray Robinson, who most purists consider the greatest fighter of all time. The 50's had Brockton Blockbuster, Rocky Marciano and a continuation but fading of the above fighters named. The 60's had a monster by the name of Sonny Liston, who was speed flogged by a likeable but controversial young fighter from Louisville, KY. This decade also introduced us to 2 heavyweights forever linked to "Louisville Lip", Big George Foreman, and the late Smokin Joe. The 70's gave birth to Hands of Stone, the second coming of Sugar Ray, and the greatest and saddest Heavyweight fights of all time, featuring Muhammad Ali, who IMHO is the greatest HW champion P4P ever. The 80's had colorful and exciting fighters. Leonard continued his entertaining ways, Larry Holmes ruled the big boys for 7 years straight, Hit Man and Marvelous became household names, and an uneducated street thug named Tyson struck fear in the HW ranks. The 90's....eeehhh...all the hero's started to go....names like Roy Jones Jr. and De La Hoya tried to keep us entertained, but it wasn't really the same. Oh yeah, George Foreman was still with us. 2000 to present? The biggest name around is a fiesty little Phillipino named Pacquiao. Hell, I couldn't even tell you who the HW champ is anymore. Oh, and they made a movie (The Fighter) about Micky Ward... who could hold his own in the ring. But I'm with Sid, much, much better sport than UFC, MMA, BFE, or whatever they call it.
Kes, you describe watching Ali-Frazier as watching "old-time fights"? Watching Dempsey v Tunney or Jack Johnson v Jim Jeffries is watching an "old-time" fight. Ali-Frazier happened just a few years ago, didn't it? Christ, I'm feeling old after reading your note. Ali was probably one of the most graceful and talented athletes ever along with being handsome and articulate and incredibly funny. Frazier, in contrast was short, partially blind in one eye, plodding, and plain spoken. But, he had an extraordinary courage, superhuman willpower, and did own one the greatest left hooks in boxing history. In order to get inside to punish the much taller Ali, he had to absorb horrible punishment but he did and came coming and coming and coming to land his shot. He is a human metaphor that the less talented can sometimes prevail but that the price to be paid is high. In actuality. the price both men paid for their fights was the opportunity to live in reasonable health after they retired from boxing. Their last fight was one of those contests where there really was not a loser. No matter if you were an Ali or Frazier fan at the start of the fight, I think fans of each camp ended up acknowledging that both men were great champions.
Very well said, Bobda. AJ, I would add only one name to your description of the 50's, post-Marciano..........Floyd Patterson.
As long as there has been boxing There have been questions about its legitimacy. I disagree with Sid regarding UFC. It is ultra violent yet closely regulated. The fights are stopped quickly and the damage is usually strictly cosmetic. The fighters are multi-talented in at least two or more disciplines. A boxer would not have much of a chance against his contemporary in UFC.
Bobda, I'm not yet 40 so the only great I've had the chance to watch live was Tyson. He wasn't a great skills fighter, but OMG his punches were devastating. I like UFC. To me, there is a lot more strategy and skill required with many more ways available to take down your opponent. Who will enforce their will and style? It is brutal, but I would argue the long-time damage to the brain is actually less in MMA than it is in boxing. Plus, at this point, there isn't near the controversy or question as to the legitimacy of the matchups or if they're actually fighting.
What do you mean by that, George? If they are boxing, I'm guessing that the boxer would have the advantage, because they would be competing under boxing rules. If they were doing what they do in UFC, I'm sure the UFC guy would have the advantage. Isn't that pretty obvious? Hey. If you guys like UFC, go for it. I don't.
I thought this a real nice story by Dave Anderson in the NY Times. A Champion Who Won Inside the Ring and Out http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/08/sports/joe-frazier-a-champion-who-won-inside-the-ring-and-out.html?scp=2&sq=dave%20anderson&st=cse
I enjoy UFC also....extraordinarily talented, iron willed men in the type of physical condition that few can even imagine. There are no boxers that would come out of the octagon upright against any of the great UFC fighters. My favorite of all albeit a little past his prime - the California Kid Urijah Faber. Wow....incredibly athletic with crazy good skills. Hell, the kid even has a bikini named after him....the Faberkini!
I should clarify. Put a boxer in a ring with a UFC fighter and the only rules are last man standing wins and there is not a boxer alive that could go one round with a UFC fighter. Boxing is dead. A zillion weight classes, multiple champions in each, shady characters in every corner, inconsistent referees. And boxers take ten times the beating a UFC fighter takes.
The discussion about Smokin Joe and Ali is not complete without mentioning George Foreman. If he had the same laid back attitude he developed later in life he may have been a long time champion. But it seemed all you had to do in those days is take him to about round 6 or 7 and he would collapse with fatigue. Who can forget rope a dope. But Smokin Joe was always a class act who I always rooted for. RIP Joe