I am just curious what the general feeling is here when you read of a new movement in the works on the Hill that will make provisions for states to go bankrupt and then default on retiree payments. Since when did this country fall into such a deep trench of indian giving and broken promises and/or dreams. Hard core wealthy don't see this as a problem because they have the ability to withstand such loss of income even though they don't like it. But most Americans by far are not hard core wealthy and the oldest of Americans bought into jobs that had retirement plans a long time ago. It now appears they were sold a bill of goods and there is a certain faction of other Americans and politicians that think this it is just fine to promise one thing and then take it away. It harkens back to what I have said will be this nation's financial downfall eventually and that is the destruction of trust in all aspects of our financial dealings.
I certainly don't believe that way.....I find it despicable. The question becomes, how do you propose to pay them if there is nothing there to pay them with? A solution long favored by many in this county is to simply pay them with more promises that can't be kept.....I don't believe that is the right answer either. At some point one is forced to face reality and address the underlying structural causes that created the broken promises to begin.....reality doesn't go away no matter how far we bury our heads in the sand.
We just saw congress pass a health care bill that included 500 billion dollars being stolen from Medicare to fund the new program. That money has been taken from wage earners for decades and is supposed to fund their health care in later years. I just didn't see the outrage that should have been expressed when that happened.
If true it is outrageous Gipper. Of course a failure by private insurers to do what they are supposed to do....do what they say they will do.... has contributed mightily to the whole system failure.
There is no ethical or moral way to take back already earned and promised retirement benefits...I'm not sure of the legality of what you are claiming...I'm not sure that declaring bankruptcy by a state or local govt. clears those off the books...Gip? I have heard of local govt's declaring bankruptcy as a way of voiding contracts with public service employees unions...regarding minimum staffing, future retirement and health benefits, etc...but that is different from taking already earned retirement benefits away.
I don't know about Municipalites or States, but when Companies go under and have retirement plans those plans are taken over by some Govt Agency and administered. I'm not sure if the retirees get 100% of benefits or what. But I don't think they (the retirees) are just SoL.
:idea: For decades, the gigantic pensions handed out here purchased the votes of Californians for the Democratic Party. People who did little or no work were paid millions of dollars and allowed to retire at 90% of their highest year's salary at age 55. Now......there is no money left for these political payoffs, even if they tax every honest, non-government worker to the moon. As Margaret Thatcher said, "The problem with socialism is that sooner or later you run out of other people's money."
I see. All state government workers are lazy no good leeches just like all auto workers are lazy and exploit their employers just like all gun owners are crazy psychotic killers.
Not my area. I do know that bankruptcy helped GM get out from under many of it's legacy obligations. (BTW book recommendation CRASH COURSE very easy read that tells about the rise and fall of the big three. It changed my mind about a few of the things that happened. As to the governement pension guarantee fund it does step in to pick up vested defined benefits. I don't beleive it covers other benefits such as health benefits. Cities have occasionally filed for bankruptcy protection, I'm not sure a state can.
TOK, you're referring to the Pension Benefit Guaranty Corporation (PBGC). Upon bankruptcy or other termination event, the PBGC takes over the administration of the defined benefit/pension plan as dictated under ERISA. What ultimately happens to the pensioners is a function of the state of the plan in terms of its funding status. The PBGC will guarantee the benefits up to the amount of its assets, i.e., it's funded status. To the extent that a plan is materially underfunded, like GM's to the tune of $15 billion dollars or so, and the plan is terminated - GM's plan has NOT been terminated - either the pensioners stand in line with the rest of the unsecured creditors in bankruptcy court or taxpayers - average Joe citizen - assumes the obligation and foots the bill. Often during the bankruptcy negotiations, the pensioners take a haircut along with everybody else to whom the company is obligated and monies are owed......as one would expect from a democratic administration, this government has tended to value claims from labor more highly than they value claims from other equally vested stakeholders......
I realize that it's your style, but why so sensitive? He said nothing like that. Any of us would take the same deal if offered. Are you really of the opinion that is is a viable thing for everybody to retire at age 55 with 90% of their highest year...even if they worked for 30 years at a 20,000 gig and then found a government position for 3 years at $70,000? Here in Ohio they can then retire as if they worked for the full 33 years at $70,000 and reap the benefits thereof. That doesn't make them leeches...that makes our government giving them those benefits stupid. Don't even get me started on all the double dipping going on here in Ohio. Folks retire all the time (in gov't) and start drawing full benefits...then two days later get hired back at the same position at the same salary. I'm not faulting them or calling them leeches...I'm saying that it's just plain wrong for our gov't to give all this away.
If something like that is so unsustainable then yes.....somebody responsible for offering it was pretty stupid. My point was Stu that too often I read comments where a few bad apples ( "People who did little or no work") seemingly taint the whole barrel and as we know that just isn't reality.
Atta boy Dave. You did it again. You couldn't think of a rational reply to what I said, so you just made something up out of thin air and ran with it. That's a great way to remain undefeated in your own mind, but it doesn't add much to the conversation...does it? First of all, I'M A GOVERNMENT WORKER who benefits from this system. My public employee union controls this state and we just reinstalled our own, personal, bought-and-paid-for governor; who just happens to be the very same guy who put this system in place back in the 1970's. What part of my post didn't you understand? I never mentioned private unions or private corporations, or any private or semi-private business dealings at all. I was speaking directly to the problem of public employee unions using endless amounts of tax dollars to enrich themselves and control elections. Its the Chicagoization of America and it's going on now. In this state, we have special state boards to examine and regulate everything from "self-esteem" to "global warming" and the board members are all paid $100,00-$250,000 per year despite the fact that the boards hold meetings only once per year. Some of them meet every other year or less. Would it surprise you to learn that these boards are filled with the relatives and friends of the public employee unions and the Democrat's political machine that they support? The daughter of Los Angeles Mayor Antonio Villaragosa serves on TWO of these boards at a cost to taxpayers of nearly $300,000 per year and I don't believe that she's done three days of work in three years. Where is the limit? When do the people get their country back?
Bad apples Jo'Co......always to be expected and weeded out if possible. I mentioned auto workers because much of the same mentality exists on this board and I recall no sympathies being offered for the millions of hard working, honest people severely affected by the automotive implosion. It's just plain wrong to lump every individual of a group that large into a super negative category.
Just watch New Jersey and Governor Christie's battles with the teachers unions. Last week he suggested an end to tenure and they want him dead for that. Then there's the fact that we have more school districts than we have towns. Think about that. Pensions have been used for decades as a way to buy votes. Promises of financial security way out of balance with the services provided by the public employee in almost all cases. Only one question applies now: How are you going to pay for it?
So George you are suggesting then that class room sizes in NJ are too small and most if not all teachers aren't worth their salt? Sounds like if I was a school bus salesman I might want to focus on NJ sales in the near future.
George, I am well aware of the stranglehold teachers unions try to get on education funding due to the work I did with school boards and administrations here in Indiana. They are very aggressive and very vengeful if they don't get their way. It looks like in NJ, the unions have been successful bringing the state to its knees. It's going to be extremely difficult to change the culture. I hope Gov. Christie is successful.
This debate is a little personal....perhaps I should "recuse" myself. My oldest son has his teaching degree in English and I have discouraged him from teaching at the public school level because the pay is limited and everyone wants to take the bennies away if they can. Tough job.....lousy pay for the work performed. He is applying to several masters programs and he will at least get his masters and probably a doctorate at some point so he can teach at the college level.