Well the message has been sent. Clemens is scheduled to testify in front of Congress. That will be under oath. I see the date has already been moved back. And then there is Mr. Bonds who's already testified that he didn't take any performance enhancing drugs. It was always so easy. Cheat, deny, lie. Now it comes with a price. I guess that's....sad.
What I find Sad gipper is that we enjoyed and admired some of these people now find out it had to do with drugs and they lied. I am not sad that they pay a price.
What's just as sad Bill is that some competed against them and didn't get our admiration because they weren't winners. They were clean but didn't get to stand on the high podium and wear the gold. Something was taken from them that they can never get back. And we spend way too much sympathy on those that took a dream away by cheating.
I'm with you gipper. I find the whole situation sad and your point about those that did not get the recognition they deserved got the worst deal of all. Unfortunately I would not be surprised that some of those runner ups might have also been using steroids also.
Probably true Bill. I think I'm more sympathetic to those that cheated and lost. How pathetic is that?
Now that's sad! :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: Seriously all this stuff makes it harder to have hero's doesn't it? Baseball has found themselves in a fine mess as to how to handle their steroid situation. Does Barry Bonds Keep the home run record, if not then the record for total home runs a a career goes back to Hank Aaron, who by all indications is very deserving! But! The record for one year would go back to Mark McGuire or Sammy Sosa?
Tough call with the baseball records. I think that they should be separated from the other records. They should be acknowledged as having been accomplished during an era where performance enhancing substances were used. Let the fan decide which accomplishment is more worthy of note.
You might have a solution there gipper. However some innocent people might get caught up in being listed in the wrong era, and do we really know how far back this might go? Sammy Sosa is one that makes me wonder, I don't think he was on the list of steroid users, but it's kind of strange that his production would drop from several years of home runs in the 60's to a sudden drop where he was lucky to get out of the 20's. However your solution might be the best available.
Re: Baseball's Hall of Fame dilemma. That is an interesting topic unto itself. I spend a lot of time driving and listening to XM sports radio, specifically the baseball channel. I've heard numerous opinions on the HOF issue from numerous sources....writers, former players, current players, etc. At this point, my opinion (subject t change, of course) is that you vote in the best players of the era - unless banned for convictions or other reasons - and let history take its course in judging this tainted era. What is common in most of the opinions is that because of the cloud of suspicion that hangs over the sport, it seems you either have to eliminate all players who played during this era or without steadfast proof to the contrary you have to take the position I described above. I think it was Bob Costas who suggested that the HOF somewhere in a book or in its written annals introducing the visitor to the hall should put a paragraph qualifying this era as tainted because of the steroid scandal, then let the visitor take the tour with this information in mind. I'd be interested in JO'Co's and Corey's opinions on this issue.
The "list" was no where near complete and was never promoted as such. The names were the result of a single investigation and one primary witness. I'd bet my house that Sosa juiced. His physical transformation was at least as pronounced as Bonds. And didn't he hit 60 or more three straight years? Did you notice in the Mike Wallace 60 Minutes interview Clemen's body language? His eyes were blinking so fast when he answered questions it looked like he was flashing Morse code.
George, I believe that Sosa did hit 60 three years in a row. One dilemma that baseball faces is that there was a period of time when I don't think that it was illegal to use steroids. Also when it comes to assessing blame in baseball you have to look at the administrators of the game, the commissioner etc and the president of the baseball union. They were all very happy to look the other way when we had the McGuire Sosa battle, it was great for ratings.
I was addressing the records and not the players themselves. I feel that McGuire's record and Bond's record should be viewed for what it is, tainted by the real possibility that substances not available before and now banned were used. When you look at how the number of home runs the league leaders are not hitting compared to 5 years ago it's obvious that without the juice, it's not that easy to hit 50.
I agree gipper. How do you feel that baseball officials were so willing to look the other way for the great ratings during that McGuire and Sosa battle to break the record? By the way, I don't have a solution and think that what you and Sid have what is probably about the only way it can be handled.
Somebody asked me the other day how I could stand having Tejada on the Astros since he was in the report. I didn't really have a good answer, except that I'm ready to put it behind me. If they did them in the past when they weren't illegal then lets move on, if they did them when they were illegal then if they can prove it fine them, sit them out whatever. But I'm not going spend a lot of time worrying that my SS is a former juicer or not. They have tests now (well not for HGH) so if they catch him or anyother guy fine them/ban them whatever. But I'm sort of tired of all the rhetoric and the handwringing. I have no doubt that the Mitchell report was the tip of the iceberg, if so then in a way the playing field might have been level in it's on juiced up way. I'm definitely against Congress spending my money to posture like a bunch of sanctimonious peakcocks over this issue. It's really none of their businees, it's baseball's. I can see nothing comming out of any hearings except Congressmen getting face time and appearing properly concerned. Afterwards they go back to being alcholics, adulters, money grubbing, page/intern chasing, assholes they have always been. Terry
Quite frankly Bill, ever since the collusion decision it has seemed to me that baseball ownership is intimidated by the union. They don't use the bathroom without getting union approval. The reason steroids are illegal without doctor's supervision is that there is evidence that long term use is detrimental to one's health. (Lyle Alzado sure thought so.) Worker safety should always be the highest priority for a union. By not doing anything to take these drugs out of the game the union stood by while its members risked their health or ended up at a bargaining disadvantage because non-users did not have the numbers that the users had. You can claim that the owners turned their backs on the problem to make money. Fine, but just what did the union gain from not protecting the non-users? Bud Selig is just too easy a target for some.
Let's face it. We will never look at the players or the game the same way again. At least not in the short term. How can you? There are many guilty parties who may escape detection and some innocent ones who will be painted with the same brush. Basball looked the other way because the game was on a long downward spiral due the labor unrest, the strikes and the escalating salaries. They needed some excitement to distract the fans and the pursuit of long cherished records was the perfect antidote their ailments. I'm not a doctor or physiologist but I have always looked for sudden physical transformations( McWire, Bonds, Canseco, Sosa, Dysktra, etc. etc) and performance far and away greater than the individual had ever approached before ( see all of the above and others such as Brady Anderson, Brett Boone etc). The Babe reported to the ballpark straight from the speakeasies, clubs and whorehouses. He ate hot dogs and drank soda during the games. That was his training.
While I can't disagree with you gipper about the union, I do think that George has it nailed as to why Selig and the owners were willing to be willing participants in the McGuire, Sosa home run race. There is plenty of blame to go around. I'm with Terry both about congress and how I would feel having any of those players playing for my team. It's time to just move on from here.