These guys at the Hill will bend over backwards and jump at the chance to help out their rich, greedy buddies on Wall Street to the tune of 700 billion dollars but they will quibble all day about saving the auto industry and it's associated 2.5 million hard working American jobs with a measly 25 billion. http://money.cnn.com/news/newsfeeds/articles/apwire/48a85166aadbfcd042820906ce2cd457.htm That jackass down in Alabama talks about the 240,000 direct jobs in the auto industry that would disappear like they are all individual goof-offs but he ignores the other 2 million workers who would also lose their jobs if the Big Three were to go down. What an illiterate buffoon.
I agree with in principle. But then I watch the news tonight and learn that the CEOs of Ford and GM made 28 and 25 million respectively last year while the average auto worker made $29K. Perhaps leading by example might attract more sympathy. Are they any less greedy than the financiers?
yes, because Alabamians can't possibly be the sophisticated, world-traveling business minds that exist in Fl and MI. Sheeet. I listened this weekend as the head of the UAW announced that the UAW will not budge. So how important are those jobs to them anyway? I read a WSJ article, I believe it was today, and read that the average UAW worker has over 30 paid days off a year as well as bringing home a nice, fat salary that could afford them a rather healthy lifestyle on that single income alone in Alabama, or other southern states. Why not just let the industry move to places that aren't beholden to the UAW that clearly operates at in it's own interest and is a major player in the destruction of the American Automotive Industry. You flat out glossed the other articles that were posted in the other section regarding this. Oh, and as for "Dub-Yah" bailing out his Wall St friends, a quick google search shows the following: 1. There is no one more connected to Wall Street than Rahm Emanuel. 2. "Goldman Sachs was linked to more donations than any other company as its employees and their families provided $847,207 to the successful Democratic candidate's fundraising machine." 3. "People associated with JP Morgan provided $581,460 and donors linked to Citigroup gave $581,216 according to figures culled from public disclosures." Hell, here is a Time's Article from back in March that gives you the very tough numbers to chew on.
Fact checks? We don't need no stinking fact checks <r>the worker's in Michigan are backing a group that is eating, not biting, the hand that feeds it.<br/> <br/> <URL url="http://mjperry.blogspot.com/2007/07/uaw-pricing-themselves-out-of-market.html"><s></s>Auto worker's make more than college professor's<e></e></URL><br/> <QUOTE><s> </e></QUOTE> Here is another <URL url="http://blogs.edmunds.com/straightline/2007/07/uaw-workers-earn-much-more-than-college-professors.html"><s></s>article<e></e></URL> for you to read.<br/> <br/> How can you possibly sit there and blame everyone else while the UAW proudly announces that 'they won't budge'!?<br/> <br/> Obviously if these people entrust their employment to people who are so reckless with their lives and livelihoods, maybe they should look into relocating to other areas that will provide them:<br/> <br/> -Less pay but.....<br/> <br/> -Identical working conditions.<br/> -Much lower cost of living.<br/> -Better schools<br/> -Better neighborhoods<br/> -A local government that is friendly to business and actually tries to bring jobs (new and old) into their communities as opposed to sucking the few that are there dry.</r>
Where does this $29K figure come from? I've got a $100 bill in my pocket that says that that is bull ****. Here's a link. http://malaysia.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20070924073107AAuGk8O With a base pay of $28 an hr. they make well over $50K a year. Can you beleive that the CEO of Ford made 4M more than Stephon Marbury? Let's face it Stephon has much more responsibility.
Beats me. I saw it on a graph on Fox News. Being the CEO of a US automaker is akin to being Captain of the Titanic. These three companies have been taking on water for decades. Its a two headed monster 1. Crushed under the weight of negotiated union benefits and pensions 2. a generally shitty product. So to "earn" those kind of salaries and perks seems a little odd. It's risk-reward with very little of the former.
Executive compensation has always been a real sore spot with me but most everyone here always jumps on my case to defend it as a necessary evil to please the stockholders, etc. and all that crap. The 4th generation auto worker is a hard working breed in general....more like his great grandfather than his father or grandfather. They have given up a chunk of those bountiful benefits too although I don't know specifics. In any event hundreds of thousands of people like me have never been in a union but we still derive our income and livelihood from doing direct or indirect business with the Big Three. There is a helluva lot of us with families to feed that don't deserve the "let Detroit rot" mentality of a few Republicans on the Hill like the senator from Alabama I refer to.
When we talk of UAW members we think of production workers. But there are many other members who make a sizable wage. There are foundries where you find bricklayers, pipefitters, electiricians, carpenters, and millwrights. You find the same skilled trades working at all the plants maintaing the buildings and machinery. In the foundries, workers have been able to retire with full pension benefits after 30 yrs. Those that went to work out of high school retire in their late 40's. Retirees get lifetime medical and dental benefits. That includes drug coverage. Foreign companies have no medical costs because of universal health care in their countries. Their benefits don't come anywhere near what American workers get and yet somehow we expect American auto companies to build superior vehicles at a comparable or lesser price. It can't happen. I think for the greater good of the country that the auto industry has to be "saved." (for each auto worker who loses his job 5 other workers lose theirs. As compared to the Wall Street fat cats whose jobs are linked to 2. + jobs.) What we have going on right now is a game of chicken. The real solution is the auto companies going into bankruptcy and dealing with the legacy problem. The union refuses to do it voluntarily and believes that Americans would no longer buy cars from bankrupt companies. The union wants the government to just give the companies billions with not strings which will keep the money flowing and not solve the problem. The companies would once again not be able to survive. My solution would be to cut off the legacy benefits in chapt. 7 and then the feds provide some type of pension insurance similar to what steel workers received in the 90's. That "bailout" solves the real problem and just might result in financially healthy auto companies that can really compete in the world market.
Gip, That's an interesting idea. One worthy of consideration to be sure. All (Dave, because seriously, who else reads my crap) What is wrong with the industry imploding and being reborn again in a more successful economic model? The current system is broken. You can't possibly deny that. Management shares responsibility with the UAW. At some point in time, one can go from victim to willing participant, I believe that is the case here. I don't want you to lose your money. I don't want your family to suffer at all. What I don't understand is... why can't you make your money in Tennessee, Alabama or Virginia? The mother's milk on this cash cow has run dry. The auto industry needs to be reborn if it is to be saved, or it will just die again. The Federal government has played a rather dubious role in intentionally hurting industry and growth here in the Deep South, specifically Alabama (I can't believe as a self-proclaimed 'southerner' that you don't know this) in an effort to protect trade and industry in the North. Names like Henry Ford and J.P. Morgan are celebrated in some places, but not down here....and for good cause. Although a few fools still speak glowingly of 'how close they were to being millionaires' had people only let Henry Ford have his way....
My company is engaged in a multifaceted service business with all of the Big Three. We employ probably 250 people many of whom have worked here for 15-20 years or more. The Michigan unemployment rate would skyrocket to Depression like numbers if the auto industry fails and then how would you sell your house even if you could move and get a job in the south? This is a dire....dire....situation and although it's true the model has been broken for years this latest industry crash was brought on by Wall Street greed fomented by a relatively few individuals and lazy or dishonest (whichever you choose) government mismanagement of the mortgage/finance industry. The resulting credit crunch is what is causing this rapid deterioration we now see in the financial health of the auto industry because without car loans their sales are almost nil. Again....their operating condition wasn't all that swift to begin with due to legacy costs etc. but now the the situation is untenable until the banks start loaning money again for car buyers.
Amen Gip....it's past time. Their "business model" has not been able to compete for a generation now. It needs to be blown up and begun anew....pouring more money into the same failure is like taking your paycheck and flushing it down the sh!thole.....it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out what is going to happen to it.....the inordinate burden of the labor costs fundamentally prohibits the Detroit automakers from being able to compete at any level on the price/quality spectrum, invest in R&D, retool obsolete infrastructure or re-image the brand - simply ask the American auto buyer - they are talking with their wallets and feet and have been for a generation. Until the labor cost burden is fundamentally addressed, there can be no viable solution.
Hey! I have an idea! Why don't we just allow the government to take over every business and then distribute wealth evenly amongst all the poor, common folk who might lose their jobs? Oh, wait! That's alot like the movement that we fought wars and tried our best to stop for the better part of a half century. Oh, well, I guess if business is failing, you do what you gotta do.
You mean like take from those that have been successful for the purposes of giving to those who have not......? Brilliant....we've seen that movie and we know how it ends. It now appears as if many voted to see it again.....
I grew up in Florida.....graduated from Florida....happened on a chance meeting with the girl I would marry....who happened to be from the Detroit area. She loved her family and didn't want to relocate so I eventually moved from St. Louis where I was working to Detroit because the auto industry in the late 70s was one of the strongest....largest....most job promising sectors in America. Detroit is where I have made my home and raised a family. I don't have legacy benefits and neither has anyone connected with my bloodlines had them either. However....due to a bunch of greedy SOBs on Wall Street and bunch of insensitive....money/vote seeking politicians who allowed it happen I have to worry about what's next and it could be very...very difficult. This is about so much more than auto workers...... :roll: Here is some details on contributions received by the guy from Alabama....Richard Shelby....who is in so deep with the banking/housing industry he wants me standing in an unemployment line.... http://www.opensecrets.org/politicians/summary.php?cid=N00009920 This guy can go to you know where.....
My father used to work for a GM plant in Dayton, Ohio called Delco-Moraine. It's closed now just like all the manufacturing plants in Dayton. The ripple down effect is all the support industries that counted the GMs, Inlands, Frigidaires, NCRs etc as their major accounts. Many of them are closed now as well. Prior to working for GM late in his life, he worked 28 years for NCR. At NCR they were represented by a small independent labor union that worked magnificently with the company management. They made good livings with lots of perks and company services and benefits..... but not quite as good as their GM brethren in town. So they voted to take the UAW as their bargaining agent. NCR, faced with re-tooling their Dayton facility AND dealing with the new union whose demands were exhorbitant, opted to leave Dayton and set up in Georgia, Delaware, Canada . I think in the long run the UAW's record is pretty piss poor.
That is simply nonsense.....it's about 3 domestic manufacturers whose poor business decisions over a generation have placed them in a position where they are unable to compete effectively -v- foreign-owned manufacturers operating successfully in the US as evidenced by the choices made daily by the US consumer..... Greedy SOB's on Wall Street had nothing whatsoever to do with their situation - there were just as many greedy SOB's a generation ago when there were no competitors for the domestic auto companies. There will always be greedy SOB's on Wall Street....that is where greedy SOB's are supposed to be.....God help us if there are no greedy SOB's on Wall Street.....If you are not a greedy SOB on Wall Street, you need to look someplace else for work.
I don't defend the UAW by any means...ever....but I don't defend the greedy SOBs on Wall Street either. There is a point of moral ethics....some are just unable to find it.
That is true across all geographies, all sectors.....many would argue that the greedy, self-serving, short-sighted SOB's in the UAW doomed the domestic auto manufacturers, forever. At this point the preponderance of the evidence would seem to be overwhelming, imho.....
I don't see the connection between the auto mess and Wall St. It's more about over compensation, low productivity and a product that does not measure up to most foreign competitors.
Detroit puts out a good product now, but the problem is (as gipper pointed out) the public just thinks Japanese cars are better. Funny thing is most Japanese cars/trucks are built right here in the USA these days, by american non-union workers in the South. We have a Toyota Truck plant in San Antonio. If I remember correctly one of the Japanese mfg built a new plant in So. Indiana specifically because it is not union territory. Unions did a lot of good at one time. Not so much now days.