I have been on the Net and read what they say about a young teenager throwin a proper curve. I'm curious as to what the board here thinks. I've always been a 2 to 8 believer because IMHO that saves the arm more so than a 12 to 6 motion? Obviously I'm gettin' junior ready for this year and wanted to get as much input as I could because I value the info I get from this forum. Any thoughts?
This is where JO'Co would be the man! Of course Corey learned from JO'Co so I'm sure he'll have something to say. But me I'm a 9-5 guy.
Back when I was coaching ( 90's )they did not recommend kids under 15 to throw curveballs or any other breaking ballsunder the age of 15. Fastballs and circle changes were the only pitches on the menu. I know to really promising young pitchers who never made it out of high school baseball because of shoulder problems brought about by throwing too many breaking balls. The greatest hypocrisy is the LL WS where former major league players gush over 12 year olds throwing 12-6 curveballs and sliders.
Build on the changeup first. They key to a great/good changeup is keeping the fastball arm action. I tend to differ with some folks on the idea of curve balls. I guess the first question I'd have to ask is.... What is his natural throwing motion.. If he is a drop slot, darter or behind the ear guy, then a 2 to 8 might be best. If he is a straight over the top, drop and drive guy than the 12 to 6 would compliment his fastball arm action and he wouldn't have to change his release point...ergo tipping his pitch. But start with the change up. Also, if he has to 'dig' to get his change up grip then make sure he digs on each and every pitch...even when throwing the fastball.
I've read and heard that also George. The last few years I have heard that if they are shown a proper form, that it's not as destructive as thought in the past. I guess I'm curious as to what "form" they're refering to. The 12-6, as I stated before, seems to me to have the negative "snap" on the elbow. The 2-8, with a follow through across the body and to the opposite leg, is what I was taught. Corey, waiting on you.
When you mean "Dig", do you mean placing the ball in the hand? Also, when he throws, he prefers a 3/4 angle as I call it, where he releases the ball a shoulder level. I've tried in the past to get him to throw in between the shoulder and the ear, but he has the tendency to bend the arm to much before the release (does that make sense?). He has more "extension when he throws his way, but the control isn't where I'd like it. BTW, what's your take on the angle? Is the 12-6 more destructive vice a 2-8?
1. Control comes from 2 places -Balance -Consistent release point. His delivery should always be the same. Always. I could literally spend 8 hours talking about nothing but delivery and mechanics without even getting in too deep so be careful what you ask for here The consistent release point is the byproduct of a balanced windup/delivery. (I'll stop here for now but let me know if you want more later. I've actually written multiple pitching manuals so if you think my SEC/Big12 super conference rants are long, you have no idea) 2. "Dig"=When the pitcher reaches with his throwing hand into the glove to get the ball. Quite often the pitcher will simply reach into the glove, find the 2 or 4 seam fastball grip and begin his delivery...even at young ages pitchers get into this 'groove' where they can find the grip quickly and move onto the delivery. The 'dig' comes from the pitcher grasping at the ball to get a change up, curveball, slider, fork grip on the pitch... If he can't find the grip easily without looking or 'digging' into his glove for the ball, then he needs to dig on every pitch... otherwise the hitter will know what is coming. At least those paying attention will. 3. 12/6 vs 2/8 It really gets back to the natural throwing motion of the pitcher. If he comes over the top then 12/6 would be for him...dropping his slot to throw the 2/8 would just create unnatural stress on his elbow and rotator cuff... Same principle goes for a kid who throws 3/4 or even sidearm who try to reach up over the top to throw a 12/6 hammer. He's changing his mechanic and creating unfamiliar strain on his body. There is no way, without destroying your arm, to throw a true 12/6 deuce unless you're an over the top guy... It's just too much of an unnatural throwing motion and there is a huge risk of hanging it more than you get it to bite. I would say while they are younger, as George pointed out... Just stick with the fast ball/change combo. People give up on the changeup because it is a difficult pitch to learn but once it is mastered it is far more devastating than any other pitch in the game. Once you get the change up with a 5 to 10mph difference in velocity while using the same arm speed and delivery as the fast ball, you're going to eliminate at least half the lineup right there. Once you can do this consistently, you work on pressure points along the seam in your release and you can flat out make that thing dance, drop or run.
Great stuff Coach. So in review, your not a big fan of the curve until age? Work the **** outa the change up. Circle change right? And work on the laces and hand pressure to create movement. Got it. BTW, send me your dad's address and I'll get a copy of the Gator Bowl to him.
I'm not totally against the curveball... I just think there is a better way. The problem we see is that people have kids throwing 20 to 30 hammers a game and there's just no reason for it at that level. For the change up, deep in the palm as opposed to the fingertips is key. Let the fingertips guide the ball. In fact, the good ole fashioned Palm Ball is a great place to start.. a circle change can be tough on the younger guys depending on the size of their hands.
Change up is the way to go. Use the ball deep in hand with fore finger and middle finger off ball. It will jerk it out and thrown right will make the ball move down nicely like a curve. His fingers as previously stated may be too small for circle. Teach other first too I believe before teaching circle. Problem about teaching curve balls too to young kids is they will throw them all the time when playing with friends and could pick up bad habits. Balance is also very big part before even starting to pitch.
AJ shoot me your address and I'll see about getting some stuff printed out and sent to you. In the interim, here is a decent graphic that touches on some basics I was talking about.
here you can see the problem with the circle and a younger player. The finger tips are the guide but the base of the grip requires a larger, adult-sized hand bracketed by the thumb/index finger and pinky