no doubt he falls short in all the angelic choirboy attributes that the rest of the great names possess...... :roll:
On a side note, ironically Warren Sapp who HuskerFan alluded to as an example of Farves toughness, retired today as well.
You know, Aquila, something didn't sit right with me about seeing Favre's name and the word "overrated" in the same sentence, so I did some basic research. With one exception (Elway, 16 seasons) he played the same number of seasons as or less than the other top retired QBs statistically in several categories (I say "retired" because P. Manning is creeping up in a couple of categories). He holds the NFL records for attempts, completions, passing yards, TDs, and, yes, interceptions (but less per game than some others). He is second in straight games played (253) behind Jim Marshall and is the only non-lineman in the top 5. On these facts alone, by objective measure, he clearly is one of the greatest of all time. Everyone is entitled to an opinion. Personally, he is not in my top three. But how in holy hell can you say he is overrated? You can't because he is not. If you want to talk about media hype, that's another topic altogether. The instant-gratification media always will ask the question, Is he the greatest? after any big star of any sport retires or even contemplates retiring, which he has done for the past few years. It's the way things are in today's big-story-of-the-day sports media world. When you talk about the greatest QBs in NFL history in numerous categories, statistical and otherwise, there are 10-15 names that will come up, and Favre definitely is one of them. To whittle it down any more is to move the topic from objective measures to personal opinions.
I disagree with you, Sid, on a few points. First of all, let me clarify, overrated does not equal "not good." That is something very important to understand in my argument. Let me also state that I love Brett Favre's attitude, gamesmanship, and seemingly genuine "down to earth-ness", if you allow me to use that term. Now, what does overrated mean? Overrated commonly means "to regard someone or something as being better than what they actually are." Now, obviously someone has to hold that regard. In this particular case, you admit that Favre is not the greatest in your book. You also admit that the media has a love affair with him. Now, whose opinion matters more in American sports, yours or the media's when it comes to the general perception of athletes? I think you would have to admit that the media's does. So, in my mind Brett Favre is OVERRATED because I read and heard more than one journalist state that he was the greatest ever when he broke the all time TD record. I think he's an afterthought in the conversation. His most impressive accomplishment is that he played so many consecutive games at a position that gets teed off on a lot by guys that are bigger, faster, and stronger. All of his other statistical accomplishments are a result of that accomplishment. You could argue about what role pain killers had in that particular accomplishment but I won't tread that road unless someone else wants to. Now, I think he is toward the bottom of the top 10 when you consider "greatest QB of all time." That's pretty darn good and something for him to be proud of. However, I contend that championships are more important than stats and awards at the QB position. I also contend that if I were a GM and I had my choice of any QB in their prime in, let's just say, the last 25 years, I would want a guy that I had confidence in nearly every throw that they made helping me win championships. My list would look something like this. 1. Joe Montana 2. Tom Brady 3. John Elway 4. Peyton Manning 5. Steve Young 6. Dan Marino (who never had the talent around him that Favre enjoyed) 7. Brett Favre And that's just the last 25 years. I know someone will probably argue with Manning and Brady but, by the time they're done, they will have as impressive stats as anybody. I also know Steve Young won only won championship but, along with Manning, he is one of the most precise and efficient passers ever. That's just my list man. Is it personal opinion? Of course, it is but I think it has some very serious merit. Think about it.... And don't think about it with your heart because we all love Favre's personality. Think about it like you're a GM. You couldn't go wrong with any of those guys but I think the 6 I have ahead of Favre are just better.
Actually, Aquila, I don't think we disagree all that much. Most of your post is your opinion, which is how I said we tend to think. When you say that in your opinion championships are more important than statistics, you are citing specifically the same criteria I cited generally when I said, There certainly are names not in the statistical records that are considered among the greatest. Where I disagree with you is where you said, For sure, the media's opinions are jammed down our throats, but they do not matter to me UNLESS I agree with them, which is how I think most sports fans tend to feel. Thus the media can hype Favre all they want, but my opinion of him will not change. That opinion is, He is one of the greatest of all time, period. I don't go any farther than that. Just because the media tend to overhype or overrate him does not mean that he should be blanket-labeled as overrated. I guess it comes down to how one views the media. You and I seem to look at it differently. Regarding the phrase, "greatest ever", IMO depending on which category you want to talk about, you can pick a single name. As of today, by the numbers, Favre is the greatest ever in the NFL in 4 career categories: attempts, completions, passing yardage, and passing TDs. Terry Bradshaw is the greatest ever in terms of Super Bowl rings. And on and on. But to pick one name as the blanket "greatest ever" across both statistical and intangible categories? It's no more than an opinion. Even a fan poll would produce a group opinion, but an opinion nonetheless.
There's one QB who so often is overlooked with people talk about all time great QBs. Otto Graham may have been the greatest QB of all time. He certainly has the most impressive record. Sure he played his first 4 yrs. of pro football in the old AAFC. His team did win the championship all 4 years. But when the Browns entered the NFL all he did was lead them to the championship the very firstyear. In all, he played 10 years of professional football. His teams made it to the championship game all 10 yers and he won 7 championships. Oh, and one other interesting bit of trivia about OG. He played one year of professional basketball with the old Rochester franchise. Yep, they won the championship that year too.
Sid, perhaps I should have rephrased what I said about whose opinion matters more. Certainly your opinion matters to you and my opinion matters to me. Whose opinion INFLUENCES the general public's opinion more with regard to athletes? I think we'd be kidding ourselves if we thought our opinion influenced more than the media's. With regard to our opinions, certainly my view of Favre as being overrated is a matter of opinion. You don't have to agree with it. I stated in my initial post that I was sure others would disagree. That's fine but to label my opinion as worthless as Huskerman did is insulting to me and is simply a knee-jerk reaction based upon emotion rather than looking at the facts and being considerate of another's opinion. When you look at the facts (and I'm not talking intangibles here, I'm talking results) then you have to at least give credence to the suggestion that Favre is not even a top 5 QB of the past 25 years. One guy I left off my list (personal opinion) of the greatest QBs of the past 25 years was Troy Aikman who certainly helped the Cowboys win those Super Bowls. He was not the main cog that made the engine go though. I would rank him just below Favre
Excellent information about Otto Graham, Gip. I did not know about his pro BB exploits. Aquila, we've probably kicked this around as much as we can. Like I said before, I don't think we are far apart in our opinions and thoughts on the matter. It's been a good conversation....thought-provoking for me.....and it's probably time to move on.
Sid, you're probably right and graciously so, I might add. To all you Favre lovers out there, and I say lovers because for some reason I think diehard fans of Brett Favre have an emotional attachment to him that transcends being simply a fan (which there's nothing wrong with I might add), I hope I have not offended too much. My intention was not to degrade a great QB and an even better human being. My intention was to stir up debate that we can all learn something from and I think we've done that. I appreciate Favre a little more than I did last week and I hope that maybe some have taken into consideration that maybe, just maybe, Favre is a bit overhyped.
I'm not a Green Bay fan or a Farve lover. However I think he deserves all the accolades he has collected over the years and while I understand Aquila's points I can't agree Farve is overrated. Otto Graham has my vote also! But I have to admit to being a Brown's fan in those days.
Favre? LOLOLOL! Sammy Baugh...Sid Luckman...Y.A. Tittle......and oh yes..a MAN NAMED BRADY! Favre?? LOLOLOL!
These are all great QBs, including Favre. I think it is impossible to compare QBs from different eras; there are just too many variables such as the rule changes, playing conditions and the evolution of the athlete. For example, can you see Otto Graham or Johnny U trying to get away from Lawrence Taylor? Conversely. Blocking techniques include what would have been holding back in the day and there are a number of rules to protect the QB which were not available back then. But a winner is a winner and these QBs were conspicuous in their absence in this discussion: Bart Starr Roger Staubach Terry Bradshaw
I agree that there are several QBs you can mention here. All I attempted to rank were QBs in the past 25 years. As has been pointed out, it's very difficult to compare players at any position across generations. I think that is very true with QB because the position has evolved so much over the years. I think when evaluating Favres place among QBs, using the past 25 years with the evolution of the passing game and the advent of spread, west coast, and run and shoot offenses, among others, is fair. That said, guys like Bradshaw, Starr, and Staubach are certainly worthy of consideration when discussing the greatest QBs of all time but I'm not sure how you compare them to guys in the modern day of slinging the ball around.
Nobody even mentioned terry Bradshaw. Keep in mind I'm a young buck but I always thought he was a great QB, he had to be he beat my cowboys in the super bowl twice.
You beat me to it Gip. As soon as I saw Graham's name mentioned I was going to say this. If you want to talk about football accomplishments that will never be equaled this would be a good place to start. Someone mentioned Namath, who is my pick for the most overrated QB. Joe Willy threw more interceptions than touchdowns in his career, and after his rookie year he never had a season with more TDs than picks. It was mentioned the other day (on a local program here in DC) that after SB III he never beat a team with a winning record again.
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/colum...io_sal&id=3281535&lpos=spotlight&lid=tab5pos1 At least someone agrees with me.......