Bill, I'm generally not so negative, but I have heard somethings about Zook that I can't prove and that are very negative. They may be all BS, but the people I'm hearing them from are pretty straight shooters, at least to me. And as I said Illinois does have a history of this sort of thing in recruiting. Terry
Also in the line of guys building up programs, they usually don't do it with top recruiting classes right away. Even a recruiter like Mack Brown who built UNC up to a pretty good program before he left for Texas had to start having some success on the field before he got highly rated recruits, by the time he left UNC he was getting that type of recruit but it took him quite awhile before he was able to get some success on the field and upgrade the recruiting as a result. I don't know for sure about Frank Beamer at Va.Tech, but i think it also took him awhile before he started to get good recruiting classes. But in his case I don't think even with success on the field he's ever really had top recruiting classes, he just a good coach who finds players for his system and coaches them well. I don't remember Va.Tech having the type of recruiting success that Zook is having, ever.
"That he might not have even gotten in the door without Bearup is really immaterial, he didn't pay the players or offer illegal inducements. Bearup most like did any dirty work if it needed to be done. But nobody can prove all that. And as I said Bearup is not the only guy around steering kids to schools." Terry....it's hard for me to believe that you are inferring that Billy Donovan would not be where he is without the services of I guy I have never even heard of. It's pretty preposterous if you ask me. That's like saying you have heard through friend who is a cousin of a neighbor whose brother is a local CPA in the small town where Warren Buffet lives and that the accountant is the one really behind all the brilliant strategy of the Berkshire Hathaway Fund. Right.....
And one other thing, Illinois while the only big program in the state, is not that close to all the instate talent. Iowa, Notre Dame Wisconsin, Mich are just as close to the fertile recruiting grounds in the Chicagoland area. The best talent in Illinois has a long history of going to other Big 10 programs or ND. Something is not adding up.
Well as I said MCG, if you've never heard of Brett Bearup and his friendship with Billy Donavan then you aren't much of a follower of basketball recruiting. Mind you I'm not saying Donavan cheated, but I doubt if he gets some of the players he got early in his tenure at UF if he's not close friends with Brett Bearup. By now he doesn't need those guys he's made a name for himself and gets in the door on his own.
Yes...this is quite an old story and apparently was at the root of former SouCar coach Eddie Fogler's shrill and vehemently denied allegations of improper recruiting by Billy Donovan: Gamecocks unaware of SEC probe Web posted Wednesday, November 11, 1998 Associated Press COLUMBIA -- South Carolina athletics director Mike McGee says he is unaware of any official Southeastern Conference action regarding basketball coach Eddie Fogler's allegations of unethical recruiting by Florida. ``I have no knowledge of any official conference action,'' he told The Associated Press on Tuesday. Earlier in the day, he said an inquiry was going forward. McGee confirmed that someone from the SEC met with Fogler last week while on campus for a different matter. SEC Commissioner Roy Kramer, citing league policy, said he could neither confirm nor deny an inquiry. Florida athletics director Jeremy Foley said he had not heard from the league. ``The SEC is not investigating the Florida basketball program,'' he said. ``That'd be news to me.'' The controversy stems from Fogler's remarks at SEC media days last week in Birmingham, Ala. He questioned the ethics of a money manager-funded summer trip to France for 10 players, including some who had not committed to a college. Fogler did not mention any names, but he was referring to a trip organized by former Kentucky player Bret Bearup, an Atlanta attorney. Bearup's company, Pro Trust, sponsored the August trip. Fogler said the trip was within NCAA rules but implied Bearup was trying to steer players to Florida. Bearup and Florida coach Billy Donovan denied the accusations. ``I resent the things Eddie Fogler said. For him to attack my integrity and the integrity of anyone from Florida shows he doesn't have enough class, enough courage to come right out and confront me about it,'' Donovan said last week. ``It shows absolutely no guts on his part.'' Foley refused to say any more Tuesday. ``We made our comments the day after it happened,'' he said. ``Now we'll let the commissioner do what he has to do.'' The way you put this in other posts Terry was that it was a fact and that Billy D's success in recruiting is totally tied to this guy. It is an old, old story....was never proven...and always denied by Billy D and Fla.
Of course it was never proven. I never said it was, but there was smoke and likely fire, maybe not illegal fire, but clearly everybody could see that Donavan was benefiting from his relationship with Bearup. Bearup himself probably is pretty stained up but he's a pretty savy player of this game and has been able to do what he does and not get caught doing anything improper. Just remember that Bama booster that caused all the heartache at Alabama isn't likely to have been a first time rule breaker when he got caught buying Albert Means for Alabama. He'd been a Alabama booster for a long, long time, probably been breaking some rules along the way.
This oughta make you Irish fans love FSU fans even more: http://floridastate.rivals.com/showmsg.asp?fid=1088&tid=89183310&mid=89183310&sid=1061&style=2
Frankly Terry, I think Fogler and Roy Williams came out of their late 90s recruiting skirmish with Donovan looking rather lame. I think the same fate awaits coaches who want to cast innuendo and cry about Zook's Illinois successes as well. FSU fans used to do the same thing when Zook was at UF and we thought it was hilarious that they resorted to that.
Oh yeah, FSU fans that my gold standard, how they see ND recruiting. Hey I'm on record as not really being for "poaching" verbaled recruits from other schools. I don't care if it's ND getting Gray, or Brian Smith or whoever. I am even a little uncomfortable with kids verbaling and then later calling another school and asking the coach if there was a spot for them. I think if a kid decides that he doesn't want to come to ND, then he should call Charlie and tell him he's decommiting and that he's reopening his recruiting. Then after that it's all fair. But to tell a coach yeah I'm comming, I can't wait till I get there, and then when he's got another offer in hand that he's been angling for call back and say Oh yeah coach I don't think I fit in as well as I thought. Terry
By the same token some think it harsh that supposedly Meyer told a few recruits that if they visited another school they were no longer being offered by Florida but how can you blame him if he needs to know what positions are still there on the roster with a need to fill or that it's been filled already by a committed player.
Imagine if you are Zook. How would you fight the allegations that Terry has made? No specifics, no names of boosters, the only stated evidence is his success. I am convinced that Albert Means (or people around him)was offered money to play football at Alabama, and there were names of boosters and high school coaches involved early on (dammit :cry: ). Weren't we having a discussion in another thread about why kids want to go to these schools that are loaded with talent? Maybe the combination of an energetic, personable coaching staff and the opportunity for early playing time are reasons for sharp improvement also. Beamer and Mack (at UNC) went into an area that had a lot of high school talent. That talent had historically gone elsewhere to play (Penn State, ND, Clemson, Tenn) and they both started getting large percentages of that local talent and that was the main reason for their success. Illinois may be in that category. It appears as if Terry just has an opinion, and of course that is his right. Now if there is more "smoke" than the ranking of Zook's recruiting class......
"Illinois may be in that category" Precisely KP. When Zook was hired by Ill. two years ago I predicted this would happen because I know my geography and I know Ill. is centrally located between Chicago and St. Louis has close proximity to Indianapolis, Milwaukee, Detroit and Ohio. In short, a good recruiter like Zook has a lot of talent rich areas from which to choose and if he gets a few out of region guys like Benn he is that much further ahead. Just because a guy has success doesn't mean it is improper.....i.e. all the old accusations about Donovan.
Sure it does...obviously the whole SEC cheats. :lol: Methinks my friend Terry is being a bit hard on the old Zookmeister. And I also read where Charlie grumbled about other coaches messin' with his recruits...but he seemed more peeved at the recruits. Maybe he should spend more time with his recruiting and less time suing his hardworking doctors. :shock:
Gartez, that's a good point, and I'm not sure whether to agree with it or not in this case...We all respond to what we perceive as unfair criticism...sometimes in big sports markets like Chicago stuff like that gets batted around enough by the writers and the next thing you know it's Conventional Wisdom.
Upon further review.... I'm the one who initially suggested that there may be something fishy with Zook and his ability to recruit nationally prominent players to a program that is on the slag heap. The only thing you can sell on the Illinois program is that several times per year you can get your ass kicked by some good Big Ten teams. That may all change now. I have no proof. Only suspicion. Playing time is a non-issue with Benn and Wilson. They would have played right away anywhere they went.
I will say a couple of things about Charlie. 1) He was naive when it comes to recruiting, I think he thought he could deal with these kids and their parents like he dealt with agents and NFL players. You talk, you reach an agreement and you've got a deal. That's not the way it works with 17-18 y/o and their parents. He took the word of kids and their parents that they were comming, and he assumed that it was a done deal. Well we all know that it's not a done deal. So he got burned. It's part of his education in the world of college football recruiting. He's pissed, but as Stu said he's more pissed at the players who lied to him. 2) He talks too much to the media. I wouldn't want him to become like Tyrone Willingham who the media hates because he gives nonsensical answers or no answer, but I wish he didn't treat the media like they are just a bunch of guys his sitting down with to shoot the breeze. Those guys are just waiting for something that they can spin into a big story. The media loves guys who like to talk, Charlie should be less forthcomming with them and more obtuse. For example here are two questions and answers from Charlies Press Conference. Now here's how TOK would advise Charlie to answer those questions: Off camera back in his office, he makes a phone call. Charlie: Get me Krebs on the phone Charlie: Hello God father, I want to order a set of cement overshoes for Urban Meyer.
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: Hey, for the record I respect Charlie Weis and think you guys got a heck of a coach. I know that late in the recruiting game the Gators pulled someone from Notre Dame. But earlier Notre Dame got Armando Allen who many say had verbally commited to the Gators. Also last year Charlie took two guys from south Florida that many Gators thought were locks to the Gators, Young and Wenger. I think Young started as your center this year. My point is that you are going to win some and lose some. In fact in recruiting it's much like baseball where a .300 batting average will make you rich. No team gets all the best talent as we can only sign 20-25 most years. So Charlie by no means losses all the battles, he's won as many big ones or more than he's lost. My view on recruiting is as I've stated, until signing day and the name is on the paper the player is open to recruitment if that's what he wants to do. That causes last minute switches, and it also causes some players to lose their offer if they visit elsewhere.
You are right of course Bill. Charlie has done a number of things really right. First he stopped the bleeding in terms of losing to schools he should beat and the Irish finished ranked in the top 25 for the 2nd year in a row, we want to be in the top 10 every year but it's a good start. Secondly Tyrone was a lazy recruiter and as a result he only had one good class in his tenure, he was the anti-Zook when it came to recruiting. Charlie has worked tremendously hard and has brought in back to back top 10 classes. But Tyrones crappy recruiting has left him with big holes every where. He'll need the full 5 years to reverse that and get the Irish back to where they have the type of roster that you see at Michigan or Ohio State. About the recruiting and poaching and stuff, again you are right. Which is why I would like to see an early signing period. When I first started following recruiting back in the old Prodigy days, it wasn't that common for recruits to do a lot of flip flopping, they usually stayed with their commitment. It was rare to see the Irish take a kid who was verbally committed elsewhere and we didn't lose many either. When it did happen that we got a kid who decommited I was glad in one way and embarassed in another way. I remember when our OL Bob Morton decommited from A&M and came to ND, I was glad but embarassed. I don't mind a tough battle with other schools like your Gators and as a fan I naturally hate losing the battle. Wenger and Young were how I'd like things to go, it was a tough battle with Meyer but when it was over and they verbaled it was over. We lost Lorenzo Edwards, I don't know the specifics, but we lost I never had him in the committed column so you guys won, fine we move on. But now it seems like all the verbal means to most coaches is that the leader is clearly identified and you only have to recruit against that team not 4 other teams. I don't care for that, and if I had a kid I wouldn't let him give his word to any coach unless he was ready to "get married". I wouldn't put up with my kid doing the Willie Williams tour of the country. We'd look at things and decide where he best fit and be done with it. If it meant that we had to go to all 5 schools fine, but my kid wouldn't be doing the grand tour just for the "fun" of it. Terry
To me if a kid decommits in oct. or nov. that's fine. The school that was counting on him has the opportunity to shop elsewhere. However, when a kid decommits in the last week, that's just being really inconsiderate. There's not much a coach can do at that point to recruit a good alternate. The new signing coach knows how this stiffs the other coach and the kid should too. Allen committed to ND months ago. Tratou left ND hanging with a week to go. They're not even close as examples.