I was listening to a national sport talk show, and the question came up of "If Tiki Barber does retire at the end of the season...is he a Hall of Fame candidate?" The answer was "NO" from Tony Dorsett, and explaining his answer was that Tiki, a very good running back, hasn't posted the numbers to qualify in his mind. So...I thought about this and wondered, Dan Marino posted very good numbers but didn't get the elusive Super Bowl Ring...Hall of Famer. Jim Kelly, pretty good numbers no Super Bowl Ring...Hall of Famer. So, what about Barry Sanders? Is he a Hall of Famer, put up good numbers, could've been a lot more. Did he walk away to soon? Is Tiki doing the same thing? So my question to all is this...Is it the numbers that become important to become a Hall of Famer or is it just as important to make a big impact on medicore teams? This also reminds me of another part of this I am curious about...Is Tiki being fair by anouncing his retirement this early? I ask this because of the fallout Barry Sanders took when he left the Lions. So what is the proper timing? I believe that Barry was wrong, his timing really put the Lions in a bad situation. I also believe that Tiki is wrong, because he does add some distraction on a team that is in a playoff race. Curious to hear what you think? Matt In INdy Go Blue...Go Colts! Hell go Hoosiers for trying to secure a bowl bid!
Tiki's probably not a Hall of Famer. I heard that interview with Tony Dorsett, he seemed a little off, kept making silly little errors, like calling the Az Cardinals the St. Louis Cardinals and a few other things. I've heard our local NFL writer John McClain talk a number of times about the process, basically there are 2 categories of candidates. 1 cat is those guys who need no advocates, like Joe Montana. Another cat is those guys who aren't so clear and they need somebody on the committee to advocate for them, He was Elvin Bethea's advocate, spent years working on statistical presentations talking to members of the committee. Finally Elvin was elected into the HOF. Tiki will not be a first ballot guy, so it'll come down to who is his advocate and how hard will he work and what kind of case can he build. Terry
The first thing that we have to remember is that there are 32 teams in the NFL. If you play 16 yrs. in the NFL your odds of being on a Super Bowl winner are 50-50. If you play 10 yrs which is a lot for a running back your odds of winning the Super Bowl are less than 1 in 3. While some positions might have a greater impact on a team's success ie. QB the fact is, one player, no matter how great he is, cannont win an NFL championship. (as opposed to the NBA where one player can almost by himself win a championship.) Let's look at Jim Kelly. He took his Bills to 4 Super Bowls. That's astounding. The fact that he didn't win one doesn't mean he has to be thought less of than say a Mark Rypen. And then there is Barry Sanders. His lifetime and season records rank him up there with the greatest of all time. I saw just about every home game (and a couple of away games) that he played. There never was an NFL player that I ever saw who was more exciting to watch. No one knows why Barry quit when he did. My own worthless opinion was that he decided to quit while watching Reggie Brown almost die in front of him in his last regular season game. Barry had been on the field when Mike Utley was severely injured and this was something that really moved him. (I discount those that used his retirement to throw stones at the Lions claiming Barry wanted to play on a winner. If he really did, would he have gone to Ok. St.?) As to Dan Marino, his career speaks for itself. Elway earned his HOF entry before his last to seasons as a SB winner. Would we punish a linebacker if his team never made it to the Super Bowl or would we look at his career without caring about team accomplishments? As to TIki, he's got stats comparable to some who didn't get into the HOF. He certainly fails to approach the careers of Peyton, Brown and Smith. I don't disagree with Tony Dorsett.
Terry, Gip, I've read your response...however, from a fans perspective would you consider Tiki a HOF? Or better yet Edgerrin James? I have to agree with you Gipper...Jim Kelly no doubt about it, win or lose, making 4 Super Bowls, even though he didn't win one is about as impressive as it gets, supporting cast just couldn't finish! I believe the jury would be out on the Edge...his numbers were good, probably better if it weren't for Harrison and company. I don't see the Cardinals making his case any better. Don't get me wrong on Barry...that guy must've had double joints in his ankles to do some of the stuff I watched him do, no doubt he made an average Lions team into a good team, just couldn't get a QB to complement him or get a passing attack to keep teams from putting 8-9 in the box. I just don't agree with his timing of quitting, especially when it came after the draft. I mean if watching teammates get serious injuries on the field affect him that much then why not call it quits in the spring? What do you think? Matt
Matt I agree with you on the Sanders timing. It stunk for the Lions. While most LIons felt that it put the team in a bind, they blamed management more than Barry. As I indicated before, the Reggie Brown injury really effected him. I think he felt that maybe when the new season rolled around he'd have a change in feeling but he didn't. Since my theory is as unfounded as others, take it for what it's worth. I've to this day never heard Barry's explaination. I agree with you about the Edge. He's close. If he were inducted it wouldn't be a shock to me. I'd vote for him before Tiki. It seems like Phoenix is the last stop on a declining career a la Emmett Smith.
Well I don't think Tiki is wrong, the guy is starting to appear in a lot of commercials, he's become more politically active. I've heard him on Bill O'Reilly's radio show, Sean Hannity's show. I'm not sure wheter he's a Rep or a Dem to tell you the truth, but he certainly didn't come off as a Jesse Jackson lib either. He's a very sharp guy, ready to move on to the next phase of his life. He's having a good year, no not a good year but a great year so I think that should blunt any criticism. As far as Marino, Kelly and Barry Sanders those guys are all HOF. I don't think the sole criteria is Super Bowl. But it certainly helps to play on Super Bowl winning teams. BTW you didn't mention another non-SB QB in Warren Moon who had as his advocate the same John McLain. It didn't even hurt him that he beat up his wife a couple of times here in Houston. I guess the fact that his wife was a Womens Advocate Attny who after the cops were called said those bruises didn't hurt and he was a swell guy...but I digress. I think the bottom line is stats and how you rated in your era. Marshall Faulk will be a HOF, maybe not a 1st ballot but he was great for a long time. James maybe, but maybe not. Peyton Manning will be a HOF, so will Tom Brady...those guys are locks. bTw you didn't mention the biggest up and quitter in Jim Brown. Of course Brown accomplished more in 9 years than most do in 15.
I hear what your saying Gipper...I guess what I'm getting at is in my opinion...a HOF should be measured not only in stats(which is what i took out of the Dorsett interview) but the overall effect that player has on the teams he plays on. The big question I have to figure out for myself is what kind of impact did Tiki play with the Giants...because I don't believe the numbers alone should make him a HOF. Sanders was a Great Player, the Edge is a good player, I'm not sure he would make it in my Hall of Fame. Terry, you bring up an excellent point, if you didn't realize it...How much should a players character play into a HOF? No doubt Jim Brown was a Great player, but his off field personal conflicts is a problem. I guess now it becomes "what is your definition of a Hall of Famer?" Things that make you go hmmmm.... Matt
I have to weigh in here. There are no absolute qualifications for the HOF; if there were we would not be discussing this. My personal criteria is simple; did the player stand out among his peers for an appreciable period of time. The average NFL career is 4.5 years. Tiki has played ten years. He accounts for 1,800 yards from scrimmage every year. I don't know ahether that qualifies him or not but only one back has ever retired at his prime that was somewhat replaced and that was Jim Brown ( by LeRoy Kelly ). Kelly is in the HOF; how do he and Tiki compare? Have you ever seen the documentary of Jim Otto? He was basically a paraplegic. He lived his life in eternal agony. Did he play all those years because of love of the game or lack of anything else to do? I don't know. Jim Brown and Tiki Barber have talent that eclipses football. There is nothing for either of them to prove on the field. They quit at the absolute top of their game. They owe the fans nor the team nothing. Brown has led a very productive life since he quit and I'm 100% sure Tiki will too. And they could walk a golf course. I'm not sure what Barry Sanders is up too these days but I'm sure he's fine as well. By the way, as far as Tiki distracting the team... since he announced his retirement the Giants are 4-0. The best NFL running backs I ever saw, in order are: Jim Brown Barry Sanders Walter Payton Gale Sayers Earl Campbell O.J. Simpson Emmitt Smith
I don't see how he gets in. He's been an All-Pro once, he's played in two Pro Bowls, and he has more fumbles (52) than rushing TDs (50).
George, I'm not trying to bash on Tiki, but it was interview and talk I've heard over the last month surrounding Tiki that really started me to think about this and wonder what everyone else thought about this. I don't believe there is a right or wrong answer on this and fortunately/unfortunately we the fans really don't have a say in who is a HOF. I just hate the fact that for whatever reason if a player is borderline then they have to have someone else parade them around to get in. Which is why I thought this topic was a little interesting and sparked my interest in seeing what other people's criteria would be for the Hall of Fame. Matt
Matt, You don't understand; I don't care whether he gets in or not. I was just trying to ask provocative questions. It's an inexact science...